Topic: CAD Standards letter

[Keith™]

Every project we did used the exact standard, and as such a single letter would be sufficient, so long as it covered all present and future work. However, I am no corporate lawyer .... but I think it would likely be best if each time you sign a contract for a project with an outside contractor, that you include the letter as part of the contract. Think about when you deal with any company, they make you sign something that you have signed for them a hundred different times before ... the "Truth in Lending" disclosure comes to mind .. heck after all, you HAVE borrowed a buck or two from the bank before and they DO already have a copy of it on file .. so why do they make you sign another one?

[One Shot]

Every project we did used the exact standard, and as such a single letter would be sufficient, so long as it covered all present and future work. However, I am no corporate lawyer .... but I think it would likely be best if each time you sign a contract for a project with an outside contractor, that you include the letter as part of the contract. Think about when you deal with any company, they make you sign something that you have signed for them a hundred different times before ... the "Truth in Lending" disclosure comes to mind .. heck after all, you HAVE borrowed a buck or two from the bank before and they DO already have a copy of it on file .. so why do they make you sign another one?

Thank you!  beside M-dub giving an example.  Does anyone else an example so I can find a best way to create this letter?

Thank you,

Brad

[Birdy]

Brad, does your company provide them with a .dwt file, and all the support stuff like .stb, .ctb, fonts(?), basic blocks, etc?

I mean, if I were your sub contractor, and you wanted me to follow your standards, I'd say; "Sure. Please provide them."
 < the files I mean.>

If you didn't, but said that I had to create them myself, so the drawings I send you will plot out nicely (as one example), then I'd  charge you big bucks to create something that I really don't need.

I know there's a lot more to it than that, but for your company to provide files for the subs would be a great first step.

<disregard in the event you already do this>

We don't sub out cad work, so I can't help with the letter thing.

I do on occasion, get cad files from others, and I just plot them and the project manager gets what he gets.  I will not spend any time trying to get outside sources drawings to "plot properly."  (Got enough stuff to deal with in house)

[Jim Yadon]

This letter would be for the outside consultants only.  I am still trying to come up with a way to deal with the in-house drawings.

Thank you,

Brad

My suggestion would be to get to know the standards tools within ACAD. Either that or write your own. A letter like that won't stand up in court if you stiff a guy for 80 hours worth of work because he was working under the gun and didn't draw to your conventions. Putting forth such a letter could also drive away potentially awesome & reliable talent. Folks get comfortable drawing things in a certain way and it's more cost effective (with outsourced work) to run a standards tool and change their drawing to fit your needs rather than forcing someone to adhere to guidelines that you'll still have to check anyway.

Just my opinion though.

[dan19936]

A letter like that won't stand up in court if you stiff a guy for 80 hours worth of work because he was working under the gun and didn't draw to your conventions.

If their contract says they will agree to your standards and you provide the standards as an attachment to the contract, no court will care what gun they had to their head. You signed it, you live with it.

As an architect we were subs to a prime architect for a big job. They had their cad standards, provided us a PDF manual and all their blocks along with template drawings. We followed it, simple. (of course their cad people did hassle everyone a little)

Dan

[CADaver]

A letter will only keep the honest guys honest. 

The only way to ensure compliance is through contract that specifically stipulates the standards expected and remedies for non-compliance.  To ensure contractor cost recovery, the specified standards must be made known at bid. That way if a sub chooses to be "ticked" at providing drawings to our specifications, he can choose to no-bid, and we'll be happy to contract someone else.

Remedies and penalties for non-compliance must be contracted as well, otherwise the standards requirement will have no teeth.  In a schedule driven world, non-compliance can impact delivery dates and schedule penalties may ensue.  The responsibility for this liability must be covered in contract prior to execution.

The end product is all the drawings, including those provided by subs, and in the end, all the drawings must adhere to the specified standards.

[Jim Yadon]

It all seems alot like the issue we have here with people titling there posts with something meaningful that applies to the post. Some will try and some just don't bother. Even with a contract in place, as someone in the business of subctracting to GC's, I am very familiar with the fact that the longer and more detailed the contract gets... the more the details tend to get overlooked and worked around. That is why I suggested the standards tools. While it may seem like a bit of effort at first, once they are set up, it's actually pretty easy to administer that type of thing.

[CADaver]

the more the details tend to get overlooked and worked around.

Well that's my job.  I check incoming files for compliance.  If there's a problem, I return the entire package (minus the check) and remind them of their contracted obligation for compliance.  So far (except for one sub) only a few of our subs have failed to attempt compliance, and usually it takes only one return per sub to bring them into compliance.

That is why I suggested the standards tools. While it may seem like a bit of effort at first, once they are set up, it's actually pretty easy to administer that type of thing.

I haven't the time nor the inclination to determine what the subs layer "1X-414-OBL" is supposed to be and how it's supposed to plot, nor do I care.  He's been contracted to adhere to a specific standard and that's what he'll do.

[AVCAD]

This will never work for consultants in house ya sure go for it get your company on t he same page with eachother so you package looks the same no matter who works on it in the office.

I deal with it everyday of my life and this is one thing a client will never win on.

Currently I have 90 on going projects. We are a consultant firm. If I had to conform to their standards on every project i would not get any work done at all. All firms have their Company standards to follow. It is extremely pig headed to think that just cause you being the client or architect that hired a consultant that they should and must follow standards that your company uses, or that, that one person likes.

Every company has routines and standards that do a lot of stuff automatically, such as layers, fonts, text sizes etc...do you know how much time would be wasted changing everything to match your standards. good luck on hitting that dead line in 11th hour and keeping the project under budget.

Unless you are a consulting firm and you are farming out your drafting work then no this will never work. Printing wise....most consultants will not give up their actual CAD files, a CAD file is considered intellectual property, yes it is...custom symbols, schedules, devices, details....that is all considered a company's property...and a lot of them will make you sign agreements before releasing cad files if that. Most will jsut give you PLT or DWF or PDF files. DWF files are even iffy, cause a architect can go in and change layer viewing properties and  then call you back tell you all your layers are screwed up...yes it has happened.

On top of that, if you get a CAD file from a consultant and you are an architect, Think about the way your drawings already print. Walls are all dark, dimensions everywhere etc...90% of consultants hate that on their drawings. It takes up room and looks really ugly, 99% of time they shut off the layers and and gray out the backgrounds so that they print half toned and you can see the work they did...

Now if you get their cad files and use your pen weights to print, those drawings are going too luck fugly.

Your best bet to get all trades on the same standard or "your" standard...is open a branch in your company that does it all. No consultant will ever take a "standards" doc from a client and incorporate it into their projects, if they did your would still be waiting for drawings.

[Bob Garner]

What I'm hearing here are, I think, two different scenes:  the first where you are hiring another company to assist you with your drafting, and as such, it has to meet your drafting standards.  The second is where you are hiring a sub to furnish something that is there specialty, such as furnishing you with, say HVAC drawings for your buildings.  In this second case, you may have difficulty in getting the sub to deviate from their own in-house standards.  Just as you don't want to deviate for what works for you, the sub may feel likewise.

But......All it takes for an enforceable contract is for the two parties to agree to something, put it in writing, etc.  And if you can get the subs to agree, then done deal.

I would suggest writing up your drafting standards as an exhibit that can be referenced in the contract and attached to the contract, just like you do with, say, your standard hourly rates sheet.  Then the standards can be varied from contract to contract to keep up with changes or job types.

It's Friday afternoon and I'm writing about contracts?  Jeeze, Bob, get a life or go home.  Seriously, though, contracts is important stuff and worth all the time you spend on them.  G'luck.

Bob

[CADaver]

I deal with it everyday of my life and this is one thing a client will never win on.

As a client, I win on it EVERY time.  You do it my way, or you don't get the contract.  Haven't had a problem yet, but then its only been twenty years.

If I had to conform to their standards on every project i would not get any work done at all.

Sounds like better planning is in order.

All firms have their Company standards to follow. It is extremely pig headed to think that just cause you being the client or architect that hired a consultant that they should and must follow standards that your company uses, or that, that one person likes.

If I'm writing the check, its my way.  Why should I spend my time making your drawings work for my application?  That's what I pay you for.

Every company has routines and standards that do a lot of stuff automatically, such as layers, fonts, text sizes etc...do you know how much time would be wasted changing everything to match your standards.

Proper planning prevents poor performance

good luck on hitting that dead line in 11th hour and keeping the project under budget.

Haven't had a problem yet, but then that would be your problem were you a contractor of ours.  If you can't perform the contract, don't sign it.

....most consultants will not give up their actual CAD files, a CAD file is considered intellectual property, yes it is...custom symbols, schedules, devices, details....that is all considered a company's property...and a lot of them will make you sign agreements before releasing cad files if that. Most will jsut give you PLT or DWF or PDF files. DWF files are even iffy, cause a architect can go in and change layer viewing properties and  then call you back tell you all your layers are screwed up...yes it has happened.

When you work for us, the files belong to us.

On top of that, if you get a CAD file from a consultant and you are an architect,

Ya' know, I hate to break it to you, but only a very small portion of CAD work is Architectural.

Think about the way your drawings already print. Walls are all dark, dimensions everywhere etc...90% of consultants hate that on their drawings. It takes up room and looks really ugly, 99% of time they shut off the layers and and gray out the backgrounds so that they print half toned and you can see the work they did...

Personally, I don't care at all what the consultants hate or not.  They are contracted to provide a service, and they will provide the contracted service.

Your best bet to get all trades on the same standard or "your" standard...is open a branch in your company that does it all.

Not necessary at all.

No consultant will ever take a "standards" doc from a client and incorporate it into their projects, if they did your would still be waiting for drawings.

As said before, we've had no trouble doing just that.  The last project ($450M) had several dozen different contractors supplying cad files to the project, there were less than a handful noncompliance issues.

[CADaver]

But......All it takes for an enforceable contract is for the two parties to agree to something, put it in writing, etc.  And if you can get the subs to agree, then done deal.

Yup, done and done.

I would suggest writing up your drafting standards as an exhibit that can be referenced in the contract and attached to the contract, just like you do with, say, your standard hourly rates sheet.  Then the standards can be varied from contract to contract to keep up with changes or job types.

Just that simple.

Seriously, though, contracts is important stuff and worth all the time you spend on them.  G'luck.

Yes they are.

[Kerry]

Randy,
I agree with almost everything substantive you've said on this thread.

Any chance of getting a copy of your 'Standards' via email. I realise that we work metric which may require some mods, but I'd  like to see how much trouble 'we'd' have if 'we' were required to comply ...

[CADaver]

Randy,
I agree with almost everything substantive you've said on this thread.

Any chance of getting a copy of your 'Standards' via email. I realise that we work metric which may require some mods, but I'd  like to see how much trouble 'we'd' have if 'we' were required to comply ...

Everything I have access to right now is either in contract form (and the legal guys are weird about sending that out) or programmed into the system.  I'll try and pull something together next week.

[Bryco]

I'ld like to see that too Randy.
It's pretty easy to put some verbage in a contract that asks the sub to confirm to a set of standards.
But unless the actual standards are also written into the contract or a second document is refered to by name, it gets a bit vague.
As a scenery company we very rarely have to conform to standards, but we are working on a job now where this is the case and we still didn't have a template after a month.
We don't use object related layer names too often as they don't suit working with a vast array of products and materials.Perhaps an architect would like a "Non-practicle-Door" layer or "Non-practicle-Window" layer (Hehe) but most of the things we do are non-practicle and could probably fall under the heading of art.
So the structure of your document would be pretty interesting to me, I'm hoping it will give me a better understanding of how to ask what the client wants.