Author Topic: 3D Usage ? ?  (Read 48861 times)

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MickD

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Re: 3D Usage ? ?
« Reply #30 on: March 05, 2006, 03:43:57 PM »
With the HL settings in 2004+ I've been using sliced views for layouts and sections and for detailing I've used both solprof and soldraw but now I use a different template set up for hidden lines styles. The only prob's with these features is that a lot of clients don't understand layouts/paperspace as they only use Acad for plotting.

IRT long members I use matchlines and stagger the member on the page or continue it onto another border beside the first. If I have more time I'll create a few viewports and line them up as if the member was 'broken' to fit it on the page.
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LE

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Re: 3D Usage ? ?
« Reply #31 on: March 05, 2006, 05:03:40 PM »
Some of these days.... I will like to quit AutoCAD and move into a 3D software... to bad the type of work we do and the design(s) do not allow as to spent as much I would loved into the 3D world...

Jim Yadon

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Re: 3D Usage ? ?
« Reply #32 on: March 05, 2006, 05:17:20 PM »
I know I'm probably asking for it by posing this question...

...what's wrong with AutoCAD's 3d? Is was good enough for programming the Battle scene at Helm's Deep and as I recall it was also used for sequences in the new King Kong (Discreet).

LE

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Re: 3D Usage ? ?
« Reply #33 on: March 05, 2006, 05:27:12 PM »
Don't know if the above reply was for my previous one... I am referring of stop using the 2D stuff....  :-)

MickD

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Re: 3D Usage ? ?
« Reply #34 on: March 05, 2006, 05:41:44 PM »
I know I'm probably asking for it by posing this question...

...what's wrong with AutoCAD's 3d? Is was good enough for programming the Battle scene at Helm's Deep and as I recall it was also used for sequences in the new King Kong (Discreet).

There isn't so much wrong with the 3d modelling itself, it's the lack of information that could be stored with the objects. The 3d objects produced in vanilla are simple volumetric objects and have no 'direction' or other smarts that would be very useful for BOM's and other information mining of the model.
2d representation of 3d objects is also 'clunky' compared to other systems. Paperspace, while a sound concept seems like a work around rather than a good system to produce 2d details. This is actually pretty easy to do with the OpenGL/DirectX api's for the hidden line details, a double pass with the z buffer for each line type can calculate which lines would be visible or not and then project them to 2d. These calculations are performed with the graphics api and not by AutoCAD (or the Acis modelling kernel) and would be a lot quicker.
With the new modelling engine this may change though, I can't wait to see :)
"Short cuts make long delays,' argued Pippin.”
J.R.R. Tolkien

Jim Yadon

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Re: 3D Usage ? ?
« Reply #35 on: March 05, 2006, 08:53:33 PM »
There isn't so much wrong with the 3d modelling itself, it's the lack of information that could be stored with the objects. The 3d objects produced in vanilla are simple volumetric objects and have no 'direction' or other smarts that would be very useful for BOM's and other information mining of the model.
2d representation of 3d objects is also 'clunky' compared to other systems. Paperspace, while a sound concept seems like a work around rather than a good system to produce 2d details. This is actually pretty easy to do with the OpenGL/DirectX api's for the hidden line details, a double pass with the z buffer for each line type can calculate which lines would be visible or not and then project them to 2d. These calculations are performed with the graphics api and not by AutoCAD (or the Acis modelling kernel) and would be a lot quicker.
With the new modelling engine this may change though, I can't wait to see :)

I dunno... I kind of like the approach they took. It actually makes sense to me. You create two separate spaces. One that allows you to freely model. One that allows you to make documentation for the model. The only real issues I have are that you are unable to get the *ahem* associative *cough* dimensioning to work accurately. It's getting better with every release. There are also still some issues with the hidden lines function not displaying things correctly. I personally think it's a rounding problem that causes it but I can't be certain. My programming skills aren't solid enough to say definitely one way or the other. That and the render er still hides stuff even if the layers in front of the object are frozen or off. Clipping planes do a similar thing in the 2k2 and prior. Wasn't on 2k4 long enough to find out and I haven't need them enough to experience it with 2k5.

As far as storing materials information, I've been doing that for years with XData. I've even recall several years ago, back in R14, someone set up a wind shear model to test the structural integrity of a steel tower. Looked really cool when it was running because he animated what shape the tower would take under different gusts.

Jim Yadon

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Re: 3D Usage ? ?
« Reply #36 on: March 05, 2006, 08:54:20 PM »
Don't know if the above reply was for my previous one... I am referring of stop using the 2D stuff....  :-)

Yes sir it was. I just took it different than you meant it. It's just a perception thing.

Tom

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Re: 3D Usage ? ?
« Reply #37 on: March 05, 2006, 09:33:12 PM »
Quote
You create two separate spaces. One that allows you to freely model. One that allows you to make documentation for the model. 

The only problem with this approach is if your 3D model is complex and large you end up with a huge dwg file

Jim Yadon

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Re: 3D Usage ? ?
« Reply #38 on: March 05, 2006, 09:52:59 PM »
Quote
You create two separate spaces. One that allows you to freely model. One that allows you to make documentation for the model. 

The only problem with this approach is if your 3D model is complex and large you end up with a huge dwg file
That depends. What do you consider huge?

MickD

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Re: 3D Usage ? ?
« Reply #39 on: March 05, 2006, 09:56:49 PM »
In regards to pspace, it's ok for viewing models as a layout but if you have to do workshop details of a particular item that requires more than one view and possibly sections you really have to work hard to produce them (compared to mechanical app's such as SolidWorks) and need to be created in seperate files.
The age of BIM is 'almost' here and while it may not be addequate (i.e. accurate) to take detailing info straight from the model produced by consultants to convey design intent, it would be good if you could grab something from them and be able to produce 2d views in intuative manner. I guess that's why we have to buy verticals and add-ons as it's not the intent of vanilla AutoCAD??

In my particular industry (structural steel detailing) there is little out there 'on the shelf' to use, app's like solid works, alibre and even Inventor are very good but have too many constraints and options for this type of work but do a fine job of 2d drawing of assemblies and parts. We need something in the middle I guess :)
"Short cuts make long delays,' argued Pippin.”
J.R.R. Tolkien

Jim Yadon

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Re: 3D Usage ? ?
« Reply #40 on: March 05, 2006, 10:06:14 PM »
I use a 3rd party app that does exactly what you're speaking of in 3d. I produce full working models of the products we build and generate details as necessary on the fly. They, like AutoDesk have a lot of Beta type stuff slipping through to Gamma but all in all, the software has come a long way in the last two years. Check this out. It's what I work with all day. For the super complex stuff it's still faster to do it old school. Like I said though, it's getting better every year.

MickD

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Re: 3D Usage ? ?
« Reply #41 on: March 05, 2006, 10:18:50 PM »
Thanks for the link JAY, looks interesting :)
« Last Edit: March 05, 2006, 11:04:59 PM by MickD »
"Short cuts make long delays,' argued Pippin.”
J.R.R. Tolkien

Kerry

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Re: 3D Usage ? ?
« Reply #42 on: March 05, 2006, 10:36:27 PM »
Jim,

This may give you an idea of scope and the issues facing shop detailers particularly.

This job is a simple little machinery suppurt sub-floor with support columns.

This portion of the project required 98 drawings.

The Model, 2D Floor plan and one detail drawing are attached.

Due to time constraints, ( which are TYPICAL in our industry ) this portion of the project could not be modeled and detailed in one Drawing.
Essentially the model (while still being worked on) was shared between detailers, each producing stand alone detail drawings. 

This scenario is more normal than not.


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Jim Yadon

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Re: 3D Usage ? ?
« Reply #43 on: March 05, 2006, 11:51:03 PM »
So your telling me that in an Industry that's as regulated as yours is that no one has devloped an App yet that can allow you to "build" it and pull your machining data, BOM and documentation drawings from it yet?  :?

I thought woodworker's were the only ones getting left behind on that bus.

MickD

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Re: 3D Usage ? ?
« Reply #44 on: March 06, 2006, 12:03:26 AM »
So your telling me that in an Industry that's as regulated as yours is that no one has devloped an App yet that can allow you to "build" it and pull your machining data, BOM and documentation drawings from it yet? :?

I thought woodworker's were the only ones getting left behind on that bus.

There are plenty of 'add-ons' but they all vary in how they work and nearly all lack something that you need sooner or later. And then there's the cost of some of these!. Another problem with these app's is that when you do strike trouble you're left to deal with it in standard AutoCAD, that's ok but defeats the purpose, you lose all the smarts that your app is supposed to provide and you're left with 'holes' in your information. Then there's the bugs...

"Short cuts make long delays,' argued Pippin.”
J.R.R. Tolkien