Author Topic: Revit VS ADT  (Read 16369 times)

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duh

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Revit VS ADT
« on: December 07, 2005, 07:03:01 PM »
I seem to have started a small firestorm on AutoDesk's bulletin board, and thought ...hey, why not here too :P

So, after reading reams of rants claiming the aurgument redundant and repugnant I've narrowed down the questions to:

How many firms do you know of that are actually using Revit?
How many have decided to just stick it out with ADT after evaluating it..or actually trying it as the main brain?
Is Revit really the way things are likely to go...or do you feel Revit may die on the vine, a victim of too much too soon?
Seems many ACAD/ADT users feel that they'd be throwing away everything they've learned to go Revit.....and so, loathe it...okay, they have some other valid reasons as well.

I'd like to hear the aurguments if it's not too painful for those in the know to go there again.

Cheers,
Duh

LE

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Re: Revit VS ADT
« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2005, 07:13:14 PM »
How many firms do you know of that are actually using Revit?

One - trying

Quote
How many have decided to just stick it out with ADT after evaluating it..or actually trying it as the main brain?

One - and quit and went back to vanilla

Quote
Is Revit really the way things are likely to go...or do you feel Revit may die on the vine, a victim of too much too soon?

No.

Kerry

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Re: Revit VS ADT
« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2005, 07:19:41 PM »
Quote
Is Revit really the way things are likely to go...or do you feel Revit may die on the vine, a victim of too much too soon?

Excuse me for being a pedant. This may need to be reworded, logically it begs the question.

and .. If I answer yes, does that mean I  think it's the way to go, or, that I think it will die.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2005, 07:25:44 PM by Kerry Brown »
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Bob Wahr

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Re: Revit VS ADT
« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2005, 07:35:50 PM »
How many firms do you know of that are actually using Revit?
One
How many have decided to just stick it out with ADT after evaluating it..or actually trying it as the main brain?
None that I know of.  I'm sure that there are some but I'm not privvy to their thought processes and am not sure who has evaluated it
Is Revit really the way things are likely to go...or do you feel Revit may die on the vine, a victim of too much too soon?
Autodesk wants it to be Revit, They are going to phase ADT out in favor of Revit, Revit is the likely future
Seems many ACAD/ADT users feel that they'd be throwing away everything they've learned to go Revit.....and so, loathe it...okay, they have some other valid reasons as well.
A lot of that attitude is because people fear change and Revit is change.  I have demoed Resvit Structure and while there are many things about it that are slick, it isn't CAD.  It will be a change in the way projects are done for me but I plan on making the move.

MP

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Re: Revit VS ADT
« Reply #4 on: December 07, 2005, 10:05:16 PM »
Excuse me for being a pedant. This may need to be reworded, logically it begs the question.

and .. If I answer yes, does that mean I think it's the way to go, or, that I think it will die.

Bwaaaaa, snort! If you only knew the poster!

:lol:
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Kerry

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Re: Revit VS ADT
« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2005, 10:12:51 PM »
Ooops, am I in trouble again ?
Perfection is not optional.
Everything will work just as you expect it to, unless your expectations are incorrect.
Discipline: None at all.

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MP

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Re: Revit VS ADT
« Reply #6 on: December 07, 2005, 10:39:24 PM »
No, but Duh surely has to see the humour in being corrected in that manner (an inside joke if you will).

Kerry on ...

:)
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DinØsaur

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Re: Revit VS ADT
« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2005, 11:38:16 PM »
There is a similar debate going on with the civil folk regarding Civil 3D vs Land Desktop.  Revit at this point seems to be enjoying a much warmer reception amongst the architectural community than Civil 3D is getting from those in my industry.  In all fairness, Revit has had a longer run to get its users familiar with the style based design approach, while Civil 3D is only slightly over a year out of its BETA release (although a very persuasive case has been made that it is still in BETA).  AUGI has an entire Revit community of fans boosting the product and proudly displaying their efforts.  They are absolutely rabid in their praises when compared to the commentaries about Civil 3D which usually range from recognizing that even though it has long range potential if Autodesk would ever get all of the tools needed for a completed project functioning and stable to speculation that the darn thing will never work, is too difficult to use and that legions of Civil Engineers will abandon Autodesk for having the arrogance to kill off their beloved Land Desktop.

Revit is a shoe-in to stay around compared to Civil 3D.  I have not heard of any Architects giving up on Revit and reverting to ADT.  Perhaps they are naturally more artistic and less constrained (or possibly less anal) than their Civil Engineer counterparts who insist on calculations accurate to 1/100 of a foot for a 400 foot run of sewer pipe add spot elevations to the the same 1/100 at four evenly spaced locations around the curb at a street corner to insure that water will indeed flow down the hill.  I have heard of only a handfull of companies that have NOT abandoned Civil 3D at least once and I know of only two or three projects being completed while making extensive use of the product.
Stephen R. Sherrill,
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duh

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Re: Revit VS ADT
« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2005, 11:13:23 AM »
Excuse me for being a pedant. This may need to be reworded, logically it begs the question.

and .. If I answer yes, does that mean I think it's the way to go, or, that I think it will die.

Bwaaaaa, snort! If you only knew the poster!

:lol:

Alas MP, I stand corrected, Kerry is Korrect. Poor use of grammar to say the least.

Regarding Dino's comment:
I'm not sure how widely Revit has been received warmly...perhaps places other than in the Vancouver/Victoria market it has...yesterday I did a local phone survey and found very few firms had made the plunge. A number have the demo software and are "interested," but seem to prefer slugging it out with ACAD and ADT. I did find one firm that had 10 machines going full bore with it.

However, a Vancouver reseller stated that the vast majority of firms that considered a major upgrade this year "ALL" went Revit...I'm going to get a list and see how many actually have. My understanding is that ADT has about 450K licenses sold globally...and Revit about 20K....so far.

GDF

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Re: Revit VS ADT
« Reply #9 on: May 18, 2006, 04:44:14 PM »
I would like to hear more on this dicussion. I really have not used ADT or Revit, but have seen demos and played with it some.
As an AutoCAD user since R11, I have customised the program and developed proceedures for putting together architectural
construction douments. What I would like to see is how ADT and Revit users put together a progect.

In AutoCAD I can easily put together an apartment building made up of many xrefed mirrored and rotated unit plans. How would
this be done in Revit?

I can see that Revit could have a bright future if more thought was given to actual project examples and help files on how to set
up a project for construction documents.

I would also like to know how Revit is used for details that require expanded views <not drawn to scale> to better
illustrate how for example flashing is installed.

I worked at RTKL years ago, and I have heard that they are trying out Revit on a limited basis.

Another question I have is how many people can work on the same job using Revit <is it one large data file>?

When I upgraded to AutoCAD 2006, the first thing I turned off was the Dynmode setting. When I played around with Revit
years ago the flashing curser drove me nuts.

Gary
Why is there never enough time to do it right, but always enough time to do it over?
BricsCAD 2019x64 Windows 10x64

Dilbert

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Re: Revit VS ADT
« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2006, 02:35:34 PM »
How many firms do you know of that are actually using Revit?
I know of 5 firms that currently use Revit in my city which is St Louis. One of them is HOK one of the largest Architectural firms in the world.
How many have decided to just stick it out with ADT after evaluating it..or actually trying it as the main brain?
I know many companies that actually have ADT, but only 3 that use it for its full abilities.
Is Revit really the way things are likely to go...or do you feel Revit may die on the vine, a victim of too much too soon?
Well, Revit really isn't a young program... it's been around I believe 8 years, it just wasn't part of Autodesk before that. Revit will be around for a long time too. I know this for several reasons.

First, Autodesk as a company whole is putting major funding into their Lifecycle Management programs. Yes, its separate from their Entertainment division and Manufacturing divisions, but its really the core to Autodesk's future business model. Revit is the "center piece" of Autodesk's BSD initiative. BSD is what Autodesk calls "Building Solutions Division" and BSD is the total of their Architectural product line. In turn, this BSD division is the centerpiece of the Autodesk Lifecycle Management  programs.

So Autodesk wants their lifecycle management initiatives to succeed, to do this requires their BSD division to succeed, which requires Revit to succeed.

ADT is now being build as AutoCAD for Architects, frankly I wouldn't be surprised if the next ADT release was actually named that.  While under the BSD banner, its thought of as more of a transitional program between AutoCAD and Revit in terms of client needs. Its long term status will be determined by how long 2D drafting and services will be profitable in the industry.

Yet, the rest of the Autodesk product line is gearing up toward a transition to data information sharing. This goes well beyond Revit Building, Revit Structure, and Revit Systems. Autodesk is currently working on products designed to tie in this building model to the construction process as well as long term building management solutions... all based on this digital model.

Seems many ACAD/ADT users feel that they'd be throwing away everything they've learned to go Revit.....and so, loathe it...okay, they have some other valid reasons as well.

You'll fall in love with Revit if you actually use it for any length of time. I've been using AutoCAD since 1989 and ADT since it came out... my introduction to Revit over the past few months has been amazing. Yes, some people won't like it as its different, but all in all its a great program if you use it the right way. The right way is to model everything you need to model and don't model the things you don't need to model.  In other words, there are times where you may have a standard 2D detail you've used for years in AutoCAD... don't redraw it in Revit unless you are bored. Just use it.  Yet overall I find it to be a nice program. Some people call it intuitive.. I don't think it is. But it is a very comfortable program to design/draw in once you learn it. Its a program that becomes more intuitive the more you use it and break your old AutoCAD habits.

I think it will do well.

(Ps. Behind AutoCAD and AutoCAD LT, Inventor is the highest selling product in the Autodesk portfolio. Revit out-sold Inventor in the last quarter.)

Dilbert

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Re: Revit VS ADT
« Reply #11 on: June 23, 2006, 02:44:30 PM »
I would like to hear more on this dicussion. I really have not used ADT or Revit, but have seen demos and played with it some.

I could answer these questions, but frankly you would be better off going to the Revit section of the AUGI forums. There are people there that have used it much longer than me in exactly the situations you describe.  AUGI is at www.augi.com

Just go there and enter the Forums. You'll need to register (like you did here) to post these questions.  I'm not trying to push your questions off, just there are some members over there that have used it since the start... even the original creators still visit it and answer questions. Yes, they love their program..yes they are biased toward it... yes they will give you honest answers to if something is easy or not (they are not afraid to criticize Revit when its needed).

I hope this helps.


M-dub

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Re: Revit VS ADT
« Reply #12 on: June 23, 2006, 02:45:54 PM »
Great first and second posts!
Welcome to theSwamp, Dilbert :)

Dilbert

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Re: Revit VS ADT
« Reply #13 on: June 26, 2006, 08:08:20 AM »
Great first and second posts!
Welcome to theSwamp, Dilbert :)

Thanks, glad to be here!  :-)

Draftek

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Re: Revit VS ADT
« Reply #14 on: June 26, 2006, 08:30:32 AM »
I have a question.

I work for a commercial curtain wall, storefront, window manufacturer.

I haven't had time to dig into Revit yet but have been approached by 3rd party companies to provide content for revit users based on our products.

I'm thinking kind of like an electronics Sweets catalog.

Does that work well or do most architects using Revit just use generic styles in thier design.

We would consider customization if we get something back - like BOM's or cost estimates for the architects for our products. We would be very interested if we could extract shop drawing type details from the models.

Thanks
Soli Deo Gloria

Dilbert

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Re: Revit VS ADT
« Reply #15 on: June 26, 2006, 09:30:37 AM »
Does that work well or do most architects using Revit just use generic styles in their design.

We would consider customization if we get something back - like BOM's or cost estimates for the architects for our products. We would be very interested if we could extract shop drawing type details from the models.

That's a great question, I wish more companies would ask it!!

Most architects do go generic when they originally do their designs unless they have your product line specified for the customer. BUT the future is in extractable attributes that allow for BOM's, cost estimates, etc.   Personally I see the future going this way: 10 years from now many (perhaps the vast majority) of manufacturers will have their products in some type of digital format. At this point, how does an architect pick which product he wants to use?

This is a data driven environment, no longer a "picture" or drawing driven one. This means each product contains extractable data that can be sorted with the right program. 10 years from now (likely much less) I'd expect architects to have this program either separate or built-in to their CAD software.  Lets say I wanted a certain kind of window. All I'd need to do is enter search criteria with cost, sizes, details, brand names, etc and all the windows that meet that criteria would show up... then I'd choose.  Yes, many companies already have this with their products (Anderson Windows comes to mind), but this "sort" won't be for just one company and one brand unless the designer specifies it that way. It will be a search through the entire digital library for every product that meets the specified criteria.

Ultimately, for Architects, your drawings and details... frankly are not that important. But to YOU they are worth $$$. Why? Because if you don't start designing your products today to fit into this environment then you'll be behind your competitors when this technology becomes widely available. It will be THEIR products that will be specified and not yours. Granted, you might be able to wait 3 years... maybe 5 years down the road. But you will need to do it... it's not a question of if, it's really just a question of when you want to invest in the future.

Draftek

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Re: Revit VS ADT
« Reply #16 on: June 26, 2006, 10:46:43 AM »
Thanks. Good food for thought.

I have been thinking of adding a position for Revit R&D for some time now. Maybe I should get off my butt and go for it....
Soli Deo Gloria

Birdy

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Re: Revit VS ADT
« Reply #17 on: June 26, 2006, 12:14:36 PM »
Welcome to the Swamp Brian.  Glad to see you here.

Dilbert

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Re: Revit VS ADT
« Reply #18 on: June 26, 2006, 01:25:54 PM »
Welcome to the Swamp Brian.  Glad to see you here.

It's good to be here Birdy, nice Avatar by the way!

Dilbert

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Re: Revit VS ADT
« Reply #19 on: June 26, 2006, 01:34:45 PM »
I have been thinking of adding a position for Revit R&D for some time now. Maybe I should get off my butt and go for it....

It's not a bad idea. Infact, you might even think of consulting Autodesk themselves about it. They have been really heavily promoting Revit any way they can, so if they know you will be starting a process that could aid in this Revit acceptance they might help you either find an employee, give you some free stuff, perhaps send a Rep out to demo/train your staff, etc.  I'd expect this "base" Revit push to only last another year for Autodesk before they start heavily pushing their "vertical" BSD solutions (that use Revit as a base) instead, so this is a good time to jump on board and get buddy buddy with an area (regional) Autodesk Rep.

glee

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Re: Revit VS ADT
« Reply #20 on: June 26, 2006, 08:17:14 PM »
I'm surprised PDJ didn't jump into this thread.
Anyway, personally I think Revit will be the way to go.  Painfully teaching myself Revit but no project to put it on yet. 
Trouble is to supplement things, I have been doing consulting work and most firms are still back in 2004, and some at 2007 and none are using revit.  That's a lot of programs for anyone to have to afford on their machine.  Not to mention the hardrive space all those programs take up.  Wish they make up their minds already and just push in one direction.  Some of us can't afford to buy that many programs.  We have to make a choice and go for it.  (so demo it is for a longgggg time)
No firm I know off personally has made the switch yet.  Everyone is talking about it.  Some are confused and looking at ADT.  But I think it's because whoever their techie is, worked on early versions of Revit. 


I went to an Autodesk seminar and while my questions were too specific for them to answer, the sort of brush off generalized answers gave me an idea of how to get certain things done in Revit. 


<short hijack>I didn't win the ipod they were giving away eventhough I sat through the whole presentation and made myself a pain in the behind by asking tons of questions.  Heck, I really wanted to know if they had the answers and wasn't interested in listening to a glorified sales pitch.  Some joe who walked in late and place his card in at the last minute won one of it. 

I never win anything.   :-(   <end>

Oh, I keep on reading that Autodesk is going to go for Revit and leave ADT in the dust.  Dilbert seems to have confirm that.  (Is this the same myers from augi?).  Is this written by Autodesk anywhere?  If so, is there a timeline where they intend to scrap ADT or even autocad.  I need to start planning when I put up a dinosaur avatar too.   :cry:

DinØsaur

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Re: Revit VS ADT
« Reply #21 on: June 26, 2006, 08:33:20 PM »
I'm surprised PDJ didn't jump into this thread
PDJ has been absent from these boards for several weeks for some personal reasons  :-( - for anyone interested, he seems to be quite happy and selling the heck out of Autodesk products and has taken on some additional training duties as well.

. . . I need to start planning when I put up a dinosaur avatar too.   :cry:
Don't worry, it is only a temporary blow to your ego.  Be warned though, it can be difficult to find a suitable one that meets specs. :wink:
Stephen R. Sherrill,
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Civil 3D Specialist Emeritus

YAY ME !!!  I made it out alive !

CADaver

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Re: Revit VS ADT
« Reply #22 on: June 27, 2006, 08:06:04 AM »
Oh, I keep on reading that Autodesk is going to go for Revit and leave ADT in the dust.  Dilbert seems to have confirm that.  (Is this the same myers from augi?).  Is this written by Autodesk anywhere?  If so, is there a timeline where they intend to scrap ADT or even autocad.
nah, won't happen like that, the two will converge somewhere downline.  Based on some discussions I've had with a couple of the programming peons over there, they are working to glean the best advantages of each and port them over to the other and at the same time develop new features.  They are currently maintaining amd developing for two seemingly competing programs for little reason than legacy users.  Then again, I'm talking to grunts and not the "movers/shakers".

Dilbert

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Re: Revit VS ADT
« Reply #23 on: June 28, 2006, 08:23:13 AM »

Oh, I keep on reading that Autodesk is going to go for Revit and leave ADT in the dust.  Dilbert seems to have confirm that.  (Is this the same myers from augi?).  Is this written by Autodesk anywhere?  If so, is there a timeline where they intend to scrap ADT or even autocad.  I need to start planning when I put up a dinosaur avatar too.   :cry:

 :-)  Yes, this is the same Myers guy from AUGI.

Autodesk is not getting rid of ADT any time soon. It's still the #3 product in its product line and its Autodesk Building Systems is typically used along with it.  There is no time table to get rid of it. But, its being billed as AutoCAD for Architects and no longer a BIM solution which is critical since Autodesk is staking its architectural future on BIM products.

As stated, Revit and ADT are looking more alike as time goes on, but from what I've seen a true "merge" of the products will never happen and ADT in some format will always be around as long as there is a demand for AutoCAD itself within the profession of Architecture.  This comes from me, one of the first people to say it looks like they may merge.  Ultimately there is no way for these two technologies to totally merge from a technical standpoint, but this is where data interoperability comes in... its likely they can be merged from a data standpoint and the data they could share between each other.  So an ADT user and Revit User will one day be able to share data much more cleanly than they do today... just the data each program will be able to use will be different. ADT will be a way AutoCAD users can speed up their drafting process and less expensively share data with engineers and heavy-duty Architect types.  Revit will be the choice for most Architect types and they'll be able to share their data with AutoCAD/ADT types.  ADT will be for creating buildings with Materials and ease of noting.  Revit will be for creating data rich models to share with contractors etc that use CAD as more than just a drafting tool.    In autocad terms: ADT will be like AutoCAD LT, while Revit will be AutoCAD. 2 programs that can do many of the same things, both with good production rates, just the data created by Revit will be more information rich and will tie in better with the rest of Autodesk's architectural services. If you don't need this extra data then fine, use ADT. If you do (and ultimately I would expect most people will, which may be a topic for another thread) then Revit is the way to go.

jbuzbee

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Re: Revit VS ADT
« Reply #24 on: June 28, 2006, 08:09:06 PM »
Quote
In autocad terms: ADT will be like AutoCAD LT, while Revit will be AutoCAD

Except the opposite: ADT will be fully custmizable whereas Revit will be OOTB.

I'll stick with ADT.  To think that a contractor - any contractor - would utilize a computer to build a building is ridiculous, hell, mine won't ever read the drawings that I provide!!  I'm not talking about Nuclear Powerplants or Billion dollar projects: I'm refering to 98% of the commercial projects out there.  Does Revit really make sense??

jb

BTW - never spent any time with Revit, just going by what I've read.
James Buzbee
Windows 8

Dilbert

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Re: Revit VS ADT
« Reply #25 on: June 29, 2006, 11:10:48 AM »
I'll stick with ADT.  To think that a contractor - any contractor - would utilize a computer to build a building is ridiculous, hell, mine won't ever read the drawings that I provide!!  I'm not talking about Nuclear Powerplants or Billion dollar projects: I'm refering to 98% of the commercial projects out there.  Does Revit really make sense??

It's a good question!

First, yes, Revit isn't fully customizable. It can be customized greatly, just not to the level some companies do with scripts, etc. Of course, the arguement is that the reason AutoCAD is customized is that it couldn't do everything to begin with! :-)   Revit or the verticals will do virtually everything you want them for without program customization (you can customize the doors, windows, objects, etc... just not add script commands, etc), but this might not be everything every professional wants. That's why ADT will be around for a long time to come.

Ultimately you'll find more contractors that will use the computer. Why? Because it will speed up the bidding process and also the construction documents will begin to get reviewed digitally instead of on paper.  Really. The first communities are starting to appear that actually REQUIRE a digital version of the plans. 10 years from now programs will exist that actually check the data against local codes and it will only will take a general review by plan review to get passed. As a result, the review process will greatly speed-up and the cost for having such employees on staff (to review plans) will greatly decease.

But lets not talk about the future.. lets talk about now. Revit is more intuitive to the design process and produces better deliverables than ADT for most companies. Projects may take just as long to complete, but in the time it takes to produce a model in ADT you get a more information rich model in Revit which can be used from easier to create presentations for clients to more easily doing energy calcs and mechanical sizing.  Neither product is bad, Revit just provides more potential ways to create data which can be used to reduce costs in the building lifecycle as well as more services/deliverables your firm may be able to provide. I won't say Revit is better if you are using ADT to its full potential, but Revit has the capabilities to expand the deliverables provided by your firm more than ADT will in the next 5 years.  Long-term Revit is likely (for architecture firms) to be a better solution, but it might not be the best solution for every individual in every architectural industry.

CADaver

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Re: Revit VS ADT
« Reply #26 on: June 29, 2006, 12:07:16 PM »
 Revit or the verticals will do virtually everything you want them for without program customization
ONLY for architects

10 years from now programs will exist that actually check the data against local codes
Analysis tools (STAAD, RISA, etc.) already do code checks

But lets not talk about the future.. lets talk about now. Revit is more intuitive to the design process
There's that Bentley word again.  "INTUITIVE" has been so over-used as to now be completely indefinable.  What is "intuitive" for you may be counter-productive to someone else.

Long-term Revit is likely (for architecture firms) to be a better solution, but it might not be the best solution for every individual in every architectural industry.
Only if that Architectural firm does nothing but architecture.

Dilbert

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Re: Revit VS ADT
« Reply #27 on: June 29, 2006, 01:03:30 PM »
Well, Revit Building is mostly useful for Architects. Revit Structure will be good for Structural Designers, Revit Systems will work for the Mechanical systems, etc.  Revit isn't just Revit anymore so not just one fits all. So perhaps I wasn't stating my point clearly,   Revit (or ArchiCAD or whatever does nice full, interoperable data solutions) will not be be useful for everything... the point is that the building model it creates will be useful for most everything. This isn't just used within Revit, but in software packages ranging from controling the trades during construction to Facilities management for long-term lifecycle management of a site and structure. ADT isn't currently able to deliver this type of data in a usable way among the majority of software programs which we will soon see because its just a very detailed model of a building, not an actual virtual structure based on evolving real-world data.

Also its true that programs already exist to check codes, yet I'm talking wide spread adoption as well as set-up to check all the little codes for your municipality at once. Most places are no where close to this, it will likely be a minimum of 10 years before the majority of counties/cities are set-up that way and even then many/most will still accept paper... just it will take longer to process.

Finally, I agree that "Intuitive" is subjective. Yet for the majority of Architects/Designers ... really people... when you think of a building you typically don't envision things like Elements and Constructs making up your building which is how ADT is typically used in a 3D environment. Most people I believe think along the terms of floors, spaces, and elevations.  As a result, Revit tends to work more along the lines of developing a project as a whole compaired to developing it in sectional elements that comprise the whole.  Its not a negative comment toward ADT, it's simply the way most of us have grown up and experienced structures and design. As a result, most newbies without CAD experience say Revit is easier to learn than ADT... and it is.  So yes, ADT may work geat for you.. thats why you use it. Ultimately its not the program, may it be AutoCAD, Revit, ArchiCAD or Microstation that matters... its the product you put out the door and profits you make from it.  Revit (and other BIM products) typically allow for a better, more coordinated, data rich products that can be used (or will be as software develops) with long term building management.  Does this matter to home builders? Not so much... does it matter to commercial designers? Yes, very much so.

Its not a matter of one being better than another, its a matter of which one will be better for you and the client?  Ultimately the BIM applications have more potential in these areas and will have greater long-term success... but don't expect the other options to go away anytime soon.

CADaver

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Re: Revit VS ADT
« Reply #28 on: June 29, 2006, 06:12:09 PM »
Well, Revit Building is mostly useful for Architects. Revit Structure will be good for Structural Designers, Revit Systems will work for the Mechanical systems, etc.  Revit isn't just Revit anymore so not just one fits all.

See that's part of the problem, I need something that'll do it all, and so far Revit isn't it.  I'm excited about Revit Structures 3, for the first time they are getting close to something we could use.

the point is that the building model it creates will be useful for most everything.
"Most" just won't do.  Throwing an uncontrollable Revit Structures model into the middle of an AutoCAD project just won't fit.

This isn't just used within Revit, but in software packages ranging from controling the trades during construction to Facilities management for long-term lifecycle management of a site and structure. ADT isn't currently able to deliver this type of data in a usable way among the majority of software programs which we will soon see because its just a very detailed model of a building, not an actual virtual structure based on evolving real-world data.
Fine for architects, but until Revit can handle every aspect of a facitility (not just the buildings) as smoothly as we can with just plain AutoCAD (heavily customized) it'll remain lees than useful for what we need.

Finally, I agree that "Intuitive" is subjective. Yet for the majority of Architects/Designers ... really people... when you think of a building you typically don't envision things like Elements and Constructs making up your building which is how ADT is typically used in a 3D environment. Most people I believe think along the terms of floors, spaces, and elevations.  As a result, Revit tends to work more along the lines of developing a project as a whole compaired to developing it in sectional elements that comprise the whole.  Its not a negative comment toward ADT, it's simply the way most of us have grown up and experienced structures and design. As a result, most newbies without CAD experience say Revit is easier to learn than ADT... and it is. 
that's an opinion not yet shared by all

So yes, ADT may work geat for you.. thats why you use it. Ultimately its not the program, may it be AutoCAD, Revit, ArchiCAD or Microstation that matters... its the product you put out the door and profits you make from it.  Revit (and other BIM products) typically allow for a better, more coordinated, data rich products that can be used (or will be as software develops) with long term building management.  Does this matter to home builders? Not so much... does it matter to commercial designers? Yes, very much so.
There agiain, only commercial designers in the Architectural field.

Its not a matter of one being better than another, its a matter of which one will be better for you and the client?  Ultimately the BIM applications have more potential in these areas and will have greater long-term success... but don't expect the other options to go away anytime soon.
This would be true, ONLY if development for the others stagnates.  I doubt that it will.  Looking at the differences in the software over the last 22 years, from where it was to where it is, one would be hard pressed to declare that the the same data-rich elements would NOT be available for plain AutoCAD in the next 5 or 10 years.  The fact that both packages are to be developed and marketed by the same entity makes convergence all the more likely.

Dilbert

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Re: Revit VS ADT
« Reply #29 on: June 30, 2006, 11:19:34 AM »
We'll need to agree to dis-agree on some things since only time will tell.

But I will add this: the purpose of interoperability is so we can exchange information between programs. As a result of this, we can have multiple programs that serve different functions... which means we likely will never have a program that can do it all for everyone because not everyone needs all those capabilities.

The question as posed here may actually be wrong. I don't believe ADT will ever become a true BIM product because its still just objects regardless of how its cleaned up. But what if ADT data can be transformed into Revitesque BIM objects? So far there is no signs that Autodesk plans to do this as they are making a very conscious effort to describe it as AutoCAD for Architects and no longer promote it as a BIM solution. But, if AUTOCAD can begin to understand BIM information then we have an entirely new ballgame with a huge potential for a Revit/ADT merge.  AutoCAD would at that point potentially become interoperable with both Revit and Inventor and the program could be customized to their users hearts content.     

The Billion Dollar Question for Autodesk is do they want to allow AutoCAD to generate components based off of Database information. To me that makes sense, I'm just not sure if it will to Autodesk...

Draftek

  • Water Moccasin
  • Posts: 1501
Re: Revit VS ADT
« Reply #30 on: June 30, 2006, 12:13:52 PM »
The Billion Dollar Question for Autodesk is do they want to allow AutoCAD to generate components based off of Database information. To me that makes sense, I'm just not sure if it will to Autodesk...

I do this every day, just not from Revit created data. Yet....
Soli Deo Gloria

Dilbert

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Re: Revit VS ADT
« Reply #31 on: June 30, 2006, 12:23:32 PM »
The Billion Dollar Question for Autodesk is do they want to allow AutoCAD to generate components based off of Database information. To me that makes sense, I'm just not sure if it will to Autodesk...

I do this every day, just not from Revit created data. Yet....

Its off topic, but it could relate back into the discussion, what process do you use?

CADaver

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Re: Revit VS ADT
« Reply #32 on: June 30, 2006, 12:44:36 PM »
We'll need to agree to dis-agree on some things since only time will tell.
You're the new guy at the Swamp so I'll be nice for a change and let that slide. :wink:

which means we likely will never have a program that can do it all for everyone because not everyone needs all those capabilities.
That's odd, I use one every day.  It's just not Revit (nor ADT for that matter).

The question as posed here may actually be wrong. I don't believe ADT will ever become a true BIM product because its still just objects regardless of how its cleaned up.
Can't speak for ADT, but it's not the objects,but the data that can be extracted from the objects and what can be done with that data

But, if AUTOCAD can begin to understand BIM information then we have an entirely new ballgame with a huge potential for a Revit/ADT merge.  AutoCAD would at that point potentially become interoperable with both Revit and Inventor and the program could be customized to their users hearts content.
And there is the key.

The Billion Dollar Question for Autodesk is do they want to allow AutoCAD to generate components based off of Database information. To me that makes sense, I'm just not sure if it will to Autodesk...
Certainly a connection between the database and components makes sense to Autodesk, or there wouldn't be a Revit in their stable.  What we're seeing now are the seeds of the eventual hybrid 5 -10 years from now (which will be the seeds of the eventual hybrid 5 - 10 years from then)

Dilbert

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Re: Revit VS ADT
« Reply #33 on: June 30, 2006, 01:31:52 PM »
This I will argue about, you do use a program everyday that will do it all in AutoCAD, but it doesn't do it as well as ADT can... or Inventor... or Revit...  or ArchiCAD... or Solidworks or...

Yes, it can do a wide variety of things better than anything, but it can't do specific tasks better than most task related programs. No matter how much you customize AutoCAD (unless you use a 3rd party program), I'll likely finish a project first with a highly customized version of ADT in drawing a building.

That's not a knock against AutoCAD, its versatility has long been its greatest strength! Yet when it comes to aiding in structural calculations, heat loss totals, mechanical engineering... it simply does not currently have the data required to speed these processes along like the "BIM" solutions.

So I'll agree with you, if Autodesk ever enables AutoCAD to do this then no one will question its worth...and Revit and ADT would be much more likely to team up. If it doesn't, then I can't see them ever merging.

Thanks for letting my comment in the previous post slide!    :roll: 
I think we basically agree!

Dilbert

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Re: Revit VS ADT
« Reply #34 on: June 30, 2006, 01:40:38 PM »
Can't speak for ADT, but it's not the objects,but the data that can be extracted from the objects and what can be done with that data

I wanted to add this since it relates:  The issue with ADT objects is that they can be created with very little data at all. It could just be a solid with a size and shape to be a door. On the other hand, in Revit it's a metal door with many more real world properties.  It's the difference between being a model of a door and actually being a door.  To do the calcs needed it really needs all that extra information, and Revit organizes, requires, and uses that data much better. Also, it bases the representation of objects on that data, in ADT its really just attached to something... it may or may not look like the attached data or change as the data is changed. I do believe ADT COULD do this if they invested the resources into it, but it doesn't look like that's what they want to do.  So that leads back to AutoCAD being able to do it.

CADaver

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Re: Revit VS ADT
« Reply #35 on: June 30, 2006, 04:03:28 PM »
This I will argue about, you do use a program everyday that will do it all in AutoCAD, but it doesn't do it as well as ADT can... or Inventor... or Revit...  or ArchiCAD... or Solidworks or...
Actually it does the things we need to do better than those programs

Yes, it can do a wide variety of things better than anything, but it can't do specific tasks better than most task related programs.
If a task specific tool is only capable of that specific task then it is useless for the myriad of other tasks that must be done as regularly as the specific task

No matter how much you customize AutoCAD (unless you use a 3rd party program),
or have essentially built your own, as we have.

Yet when it comes to aiding in structural calculations, heat loss totals, mechanical engineering... it simply does not currently have the data required to speed these processes along like the "BIM" solutions.
"like" the BIM solutions, no.  Differently from the other BIM solutions, yes.  We've been bouncing back and forth between DWG files and structural analysis programs for well over a decade using our version of plain AutoCAD.

So I'll agree with you, if Autodesk ever enables AutoCAD to do this then no one will question its worth...and Revit and ADT would be much more likely to team up. If it doesn't, then I can't see them ever merging.
The only way it won't happen is if Autodesk determines to let AutoCAD stagnate in favor of other solutions, and I see little eveidence for that.  Looking at the improvements of data embeddment and retrieval over the last dozen years I have little reason to doubt the same or more improvements in the next dozen.

I think we basically agree!
sorta.