Topic: Civil 3D - Incredible Shrinking (and Growing) Labels

[Dinosaur]

I am officially calling UNCLE!
Please . . . ANYONE . . . share how you are dealing with the constant resizing of C3D labels whilst editing your drawing.  The only way I have found to defeat this is to do all editing in the model space tab which presents all kinds of problems with maintaining constant layer settings throughout the tabs.
I started this adventure by using my old standby floating viewport dedicated to editing, with freezing and thawing layers via current viewport as needed.  This works perfectly except for the labels resizing with each change in the display scale when zooming.  Zooming via mouse wheel helped until a C3D object is modified which kicks in the resizing problem.
The next try involved locking this editing viewport.  This also works well except when a Regen occurs, every viewport in each layout of the drawing regens one at a time . . . big yawn time.  VP max produces no better results and has some further problems.
So, has anyone found a way to edit in Civil 3D with the ability to zoom in and out over the entire site, not mess up the layers and not blow their minds with constantly changing label sizes?

[Dent Cermak]

DUMP C3D, GO BACK TO THE 2005 LDD PACK AND WAIT FOR THE 2007 RELEASE.   

[Dinosaur]

There is no indication that Autodesk even thinks this should be a problem for anyone.  If I wait for everything on this turkey to work right, I will be retired and sitting in a nursing home waiting for my diapers to be changed when they deliver the CD.

[Mark]

It's almost like they don't want to use paperspace!!

[LE]

... I will be retired and sitting in a nursing home waiting for my diapers to be changed when they deliver the CD.

He he.... 

[Dinosaur]

It's almost like they don't want to use paperspace!!

At least with 2006 the labels retain their correct size in modelspace - with 2k4 & 2k5 it exhibited this vile behavior there as well, leaving NO refuge.
So, are you saying you ignore paperspace and revert to r10 procedures?

[Dent Cermak]

see my previous post  :kewl:

[Dinosaur]

There are actually some more very serious flaws in this brain fart from Autodesk.  It was an exciting idea when I first heard about this new ability to have one set of text that would appear the same size in any scale viewport . . . no more multiple sets of labels at different scales to manage and the things even keep themselves upright no matter how twisted the viewport gets.
Unfortunately, these goobers didn't realize that the label that fits perfectly into a given space at 20 scale can't be crammed in with a sledgehammer at 50 scale.  Conversely, if you have to annotate your plat at 100 scale, the items you have to pull off with leaders look ridiculous when they appear in a 30 scale detail area all by itself locked in the only open spot available on the plat.  Additionally, if there is a plan rotation its now huge leader will not be oriented correctly.  They also never mentioned that anything that was NOT a C3D label object would not have these magical properties and would have to be maintained in multiple sets as the had been before.
So far, it seems that one of the most appealing features that Autodesk has hawked this program with seems like a total bust.

[Dent Cermak]

R13 all over again  :ugly:

[LE]

I am not an user of this package, but I would like to hear from more users that are having the same problems and feel that way too.

Reactors [even if this feature uses custom objects they must use reactors]... are not easy for any programmer to handle, and in the other hand, the programmer does not have a clue what they are producing, since they only write code, and do not know how the end user normally wants their job done.... and end up in a program with a lot of hops, just for a task that probably is something very easy to do... end up being a complicated one.

Just my opinion, if helps in some way...
Luis.

[Dent Cermak]

If you have been using AutoCad for a while, you should know the pattern by now. If you don't, please allow me to enlighten you. Everyother release of AutoCad will be a dog. Those releases on either side of that will be a gem. Whenever AutoDesk makes MAJOR changes in the operation of the package, the first release will totally suck, following versions will progressively get better. As soon as they get a package that works well, they make a MAJOR change and totally screw it up. Check the historical record. The WORST dog was R13. They simply lied about that one. It did not work at all. R12 and R14 were speedy gems that worked. 2005 LDD is cool. The follow up is C3D. Total MAJOR changes. Totally screwed up. ANY new release MUST play well with ALL previous releases. This one does not. This is going to cost them. Now Bentley has finally come out with a package that ex-AutoCad users say is great. AutoDesk better realize REAL QUICK that they may be at a major crossroad. If they put out another major dog next March, they are going to have big problems. From what I have read rthere is just too much wrong with C3D to make me want to load it up.

[Dinosaur]

I think perhaps Civil 3D would be a better product if Autodesk had NOT made it into a companion product to AutoCAD.  It is a completely different product originally produced by CAiCE software being forced into sharing the dwg format.  Civil 3D elements are not the familiar AutoCAD entities.  I have not yet seen a drawing composed completely with Civil 3D, but I would guess that such a drawing would contain ZERO lines, plines, arcs, circles or text except those contained in any user defined blocks.  The only familiar method of modification these objects recognize is through the layer properties and even then there are seemeingly endless ways the program can override those settings.  Many AutoCAD functions have no effect other than to lock up the drawing when they are used on them.  Even osnaps work only in limited situations with them and forget about trimming or extending to them.  These objects that are so impossible to deal with through AutoCAD though can be altered in a multitude of ways via modifying the properties of their given style or changing to a completely different style withing the TOOLSPACE interface.

[LE]

I think perhaps Civil 3D would be a better product if Autodesk had NOT made it into a companion product to AutoCAD.  It is a completely different product originally produced by CAiCE software being forced into sharing the dwg format.  Civil 3D elements are not the familiar AutoCAD entities. 

Is there a chance to have a look into an IMAGE of one of your drawings? or a snapshot if you can?

Thanks,
Luis

[Mark]

While some of the ideas may have come from caice I don't see any thing in C3D that used to belong to it. IMO, C3D is nothing more than acad with some third party apps thrown in.

[Dinosaur]

I would email you a full drawing file but without C3D you would get nothing but a bunch of proxy objects and some of the original layout work done in Land Desktop.  I will try to assemble some screen shots with annotations demonstrating what I am talking about and put them in the Lilly Pad later this weekend.

[LE]

I would email you a full drawing file but without C3D you would get nothing but a bunch of proxy objects and some of the original layout work done in Land Desktop.  I will try to assemble some screen shots with annotations demonstrating what I am talking about and put them in the Lilly Pad later this weekend.

You can just email me... an image screen capture, if you can to:

supportATgeometricad.com

AT = @

Thank you,
Luis

[Mark]

I'll send you a couple dwgs next week Luis,  good luck!! 

[LE]

I'll send you a couple dwgs next week Luis,  good luck!! 

As images please.

[Mark]

I'll send you a couple dwgs next week Luis,  good luck!! 

As images please.

Why not the dwg?

[LE]

I'll send you a couple dwgs next week Luis,  good luck!! 

As images please.

Why not the dwg?

I just want to compare what info is there.

And if all those custom objects are going to be proxies... I only have vanilla/chocolate Autocad...

[Dinosaur]

While some of the ideas may have come from caice I don't see any thing in C3D that used to belong to it. IMO, C3D is nothing more than acad with some third party apps thrown in.

That is kind of what I am saying they did to it.  These objects could have a lot more native intelligence if they had taken the route Bentley has with Power Civil.  If they did not want that direction they would have been better served fixing up LDT's shortcomings.  This blend between the two they have come up with is improving but still has stability problems and is a nightmare to manipulate until considerable time has been spent developing styles and templates.  Profiles, alignments  and surfaces update dynamically within individual alignments but not where they intersect.  The manual adjustments are easy to make but equally easy to forget particularly when trying several different solutions in the same spot.
I still really like the product but I am disappointed with how certain features are performing at this stage in product development.  Much of what Civil 3D does it does quite well and I am quite surprised how well piping is performing for me.  The labeling problems I have been describing though are making me seriously want to ask for a Bentley vendor to demo Power Civil.  All they really need to do is provide the capability to lock out the automatic resizing, update the scaling on request and reset to automatic mode, but when I breach the topic in the discussion groups they refuse to acknowledge that it would be a problem.

[LE]

  All they really need to do is provide the capability to lock out the automatic resizing, update the scaling on request and reset to automatic mode, but when I breach the topic in the discussion groups they refuse to acknowledge that it would be a problem.

Hi Dinosaur,

There must be a way to capture those events and from there do our own control.... to bad I do not have or use that software....  I am in not much help to provide.....

Luis

[Dinosaur]

I have placed some screen shots HERE.  They take up a bit of Mark's realestate so let me know after you have them and I will clear them out.  Hopefully they will illustrate what I am complaining about.
As I mentioned, this behavior no longer exists when working in pure model space - only within an unlocked floating modelspace viewport if that is any clue to interrupting the offending events.
One thing of note, the objects and their labels are of course dynamically linked.  Although there may be several elements composing the label it is only one entity with an attachment point defined in the style.  The objects themselves are also one entity with several individual parts - kind of like supercharged dynamic blocks -  with their own defined attachment.  The labels can be handled either with or seperately from their object depending on the action being taken.
If you have access to or have seen Revit, Civil 3D is doing very similar things with land data as Revit does with architectural.  The Toolspace interface is also quite similar to Revit.

[Serge J. Gianolla]

Ciao Luis,
There is a Civil 3D arx enabler for AutoCAD: http://www.aac-solutions.cz/download.asp?file=2006
Who knows, that may help you lookin' at the dwgs?
Serge

[LE]

I have placed some screen shots HERE.  They take up a bit of Mark's realestate so let me know after you have them and I will clear them out.  Hopefully they will illustrate what I am complaining about.
As I mentioned, this behavior no longer exists when working in pure model space - only within an unlocked floating modelspace viewport if that is any clue to interrupting the offending events.
One thing of note, the objects and their labels are of course dynamically linked.  Although there may be several elements composing the label it is only one entity with an attachment point defined in the style.  The objects themselves are also one entity with several individual parts - kind of like supercharged dynamic blocks -  with their own defined attachment.  The labels can be handled either with or seperately from their object depending on the action being taken.
If you have access to or have seen Revit, Civil 3D is doing very similar things with land data as Revit does with architectural.  The Toolspace interface is also quite similar to Revit.

I have all the files now, I would look at them today, most of what I want now is to first understand what is going on.... I used REVIT in his early stages, never liked btw.

Now back to bussines, for what I read there must be a way to control that, from outside.

[LE]

Ciao Luis,
There is a Civil 3D arx enabler for AutoCAD: http://www.aac-solutions.cz/download.asp?file=2006
Who knows, that may help you lookin' at the dwgs?
Serge

Ciao Serge !

I do not want to add anything to my vanilla/chocolate autocad here at home, I would see if I can installed that into one of pc's at my office, if you use that in one drawing coming from C3D, how are the proxies, shown?.... I don't think they can be manipulated.... hmm, maybe if a demo of that app is available.... I check that next week.

[LE]

I found this:

Labeling & Paper Space

http://discussion.autodesk.com/thread.jspa?messageID=4218573

[Dinosaur]

I found this:

Labeling & Paper Space

http://discussion.autodesk.com/thread.jspa?messageID=4218573

Yes, the solution they ultimately described is the way I prefer to set up my sheet layouts and viewports - except I need to set both ltscale and psltscale to "1" as I often have to use multiple scales for views within the same drawing.

[LE]

Can you make a copy of the base on a different place in model space, with those labels and in paper space, just make your floating VP, set up the different scale you want and that would work no? or that is not possible?

[Dinosaur]

. . .  if you use that in one drawing coming from C3D, how are the proxies, shown?.... I don't think they can be manipulated....

I think the proxy objects will display exactly as they are in the original file only as a block for each object.  The associated labels should be a part of this block as well.  Each object can probably be erased or moved as one unit but that is all except for possibly changing color or linetype.

[jonesy]

We deal with proxy objects every day (MX to ACAD translations), they are a real PITA, they are often not even visible, no matter what you set the dialog box to. The closest thing you can get is to use the object enabler, and unless I've been using it/them wrong they still dont provide too much functionality.

[Dinosaur]

So, Is this the verdict?  Choose one from the three bad choices I had rejected before posting the question?  I guess this will have to be my new desktop background until the exterminator makes some headway . . .

[mjfarrell]

Please send me one of these bad files with the orny labels in it.
Just a small sample.

[Dinosaur]

RESOLUTION -

After a lengthy discussion, it seems that they least troublesome immediate solution is to keep my editing viewport locked and eat any performance penalty as penance for insisting on using the program with procedures deeply rooted in r13.
 
Yes Michael, I WAS paying attention . . . The real solution to this and many more mysteries will be posted in a new thread.