Topic: Details Paperspace or Modelspace?

[whdjr]

You guys aren't one of those companies that have a sheet with 20 details on it and 15 of the details have a square with a big 'X' thru it because they are not used on this job?

We don't bother putting the X thru the unused detail.  It's a generic detail sheet to which one is sent from the plans.  You're working the plans, it tells you to see detail 13 on sheet 28, you go find detail 13 on sheet 28.  You shouldn't know or care that detail 14 is never used on the project.

It just means people are too lazy to make a sheet specific for the project.

No, it means time is money and I'm on a fixed fee.  The project specific sheet comes out of my profit.  BUZZZZZ!! wrong answer.

Laziness or maybe it's because you can and nobody challenges it.  We send drawings back to the engineers all the time and tell them to remove all their extraneous crap from the drawings.  To you time is money, but to us, how many sheets are used is considered money as well.

[Keith™]

Across Florida, bulding departments will no longer accept plans with voided details (marked out), and they no longer accept general detail sheets that are not specifically part of the project. Now if I have a detail in the project that is not used, then that is ok, but the project name MUST be on that sheet with the details and there must be NO voided or marked out details.

So much for government ....

[CADaver]

Laziness or maybe it's because you can and nobody challenges it.  

We get challenged on it from time to time.  We send in a change order for the additional work with it's associated charges that must be paid prior to custom detail sets and the challeng goes away.

We send drawings back to the engineers all the time and tell them to remove all their extraneous crap from the drawings.

If it is not used why care?

To you time is money, but to us, how many sheets are used is considered money as well.

Only if you charge by the sheet.  Is anyone still doing that?  Our industry stopped that practice nearly 30 years ago.  Very often it is considerably cheaper to use more sheets than it is to cram a load of stuff on just a few sheets.  Paper is cheap.

[CADaver]

but the project name MUST be on that sheet with the details and there must be NO voided or marked out details.

That's what we do.  I have a little function that replaces the standards tileblock with the project titleblock

[whdjr]

We get challenged on it from time to time.  We send in a change order for the additional work with it's associated charges that must be paid prior to custom detail sets and the challeng goes away.

The amount of time you spend sending in the change order you could have spent correcting the sheet(s).  Don't you care how your sheets look?  We wouldn't dare send out a set with 5 sheets of details and 5 details per sheet that were mark as not used.  I could understand that concept on the drafting board but not with the computer.  The tool is there to use, why not use it instead continuing a practice started back in the stone ages.

If it is not used why care?

Because it looks back and it reflects back on the individual that produced the set.  It also clutters up a set of drawings with details that are not needed.

Only if you charge by the sheet.  Is anyone still doing that?  Our industry stopped that practice nearly 30 years ago.  Very often it is considerably cheaper to use more sheets than it is to cram a load of stuff on just a few sheets.  Paper is cheap.

We are charged for reproduction costs on a per sheet basis from our repographer so the number of wasted sheets does add up.

[CADaver]

Don't you care how your sheets look?

not when it takes my profits, I don't.  If the client wants to pay for extra work on a set of drawings that will be used for about 6 weeks then filed away, we will be happy to oblige.  But clients these days are bottom line oriented.

We wouldn't dare send out a set with 5 sheets of details and 5 details per sheet that were mark as not used.  

Good for you.  But we don't mark them as not used.

I could understand that concept on the drafting board but not with the computer.  The tool is there to use, why not use it instead continuing a practice started back in the stone ages.

we use it today for the same reason we did 30 years ago, it's faster and cheaper.  We get the job done in fewer hours, that means money in our pocket.

If it is not used why care?

Because it looks back and it reflects back on the individual that produced the set.  It also clutters up a set of drawings with details that are not needed.

Clients look at the cost of engineering, NOT how "pretty" the drawings were.  How do unused details clutter up anything? Pretend they're used.

We are charged for reproduction costs on a per sheet basis from our repographer so the number of wasted sheets does add up.

So are we, but we'd have to make 40 prints of each sheet to offset an hour.  Our contracts limit the prints of each revision to 6.

[CADaver]

The amount of time you spend sending in the change order you could have spent correcting the sheet(s).

8 standard detail sheets times 16 hours a sheet to modify and check the details for usage/non-usage, times $80 an hour BILLING rate equals $10,240, write a check for $10,240 and we'll erase details you aren't using anyway.  Oh, BTW, if you need one of those details later, it'll cost $500 each to put 'em back.

Does it really cost that much, heck no, these are punitive charges for being unprofitably picky.  When you look at our detail sheet, you won't know if the detail is being used or not, until you scour all 2500 project drawings making note of each detail's use.

[Keith™]

CADaver, am I to presume you get charged $2 per sheet for copy costs?
($80 / $2 = 40 sheets)

Our costs, while they are significantly lower than that (about 0.85 per sheet) does add up to significant costs when you are printing hundreds, if not thousands of extra pages per month.

We have a very similar situation to you. We have about 30 D-Size pages of typical details. We used to give every project 8 sets of those pages (8 x 30 x 0.89 = $213.60) ... not to mention the time involved in plotting, binding and delivering them to the client etc. After some considerable debate, we decided to use the method of incorporating only those details needed PER project. Now instead of our average size of plans being 45-50 pages, it is 15-20 pages ~ multiply that times the number of pages, subtracting the extra effort to grab only the details needed we ended up saving nearly $150 per project ... not counting postage and packaging costs.

It also reduced the number of mistakes in the field by people refering to the wrong detail. Sure, it's not our fault that the guy on the site can't tell Detail A from Detail C (even though it is clearly marked) .. but in the end, if the client is not happy, it costs us money in lost revenues and lost reputation.

We design around $75 million in homes every year and even though we are a rather small operation, budget is a HUGE consideration since we supply EVERYTHING.
A simple detail can mean the difference between an 0.85sf ceramic tile and $27sf imported marble. If we have the wrong thing in the detail, it WILL cost us a huge sum of money. To that extent EVERY detail is reviewed and examined to ensure it is proper for the respective project, not by one person, but by a minimum of 3.

Sure it is about profit, but one of the biggest ways to increase profit is to reduce liability and culpability, which is something we have so far managed to do quite well.

[CADaver]

CADaver, am I to presume you get charged $2 per sheet for copy costs?
($80 / $2 = 40 sheets)

That's the one-off fee, if we're printing several copies the price drops exponentially to about a buck a sheet.

when you are printing hundreds, if not thousands of extra pages per month.

We don't.  The only time these detail sheets are printed is when they are issued for construction or revised.  Long ago we decided that printing ALL the sheets in a set EVERY time one gets changed was a waste of time and money.  We only print what gets changed.  If the detail sheets don't get changed, they are printed once (6 sets.)

After some considerable debate, we decided to use the method of incorporating only those details needed PER project. Now instead of our average size of plans being 45-50 pages, it is 15-20 pages ~ multiply that times the number of pages, subtracting the extra effort to grab only the details needed we ended up saving nearly $150 per project ... not counting postage and packaging costs.

We might save 4 sheets out of 2500, not worth the effort.  Consider this as well, we issue packages of drawings throughout the course of a job.  The first set needs the standard details sent along with it for fabrication.  At that time we won't know which of the details will not be used for portions of the contract that will be completed in 8 months.  At a billing rate of $80 an hour, it would only take adding a couple of details to eat up the $150 savings.

It also reduced the number of mistakes in the field by people refering to the wrong detail. Sure, it's not our fault that the guy on the site can't tell Detail A from Detail C (even though it is clearly marked) .. but in the end, if the client is not happy, it costs us money in lost revenues and lost reputation.

Is this really a problem?  You've had somebody use detail C instead of A?  That's a new one on me, we've had 'em screw up detail A beyond recognition, but not use the wrong detail.

We design around $75 million in homes every year and even though we are a rather small operation, budget is a HUGE consideration since we supply EVERYTHING.

We do about 4 Billion a year in engineering out of this office, and about 4 times that in construction. Even though we are a somewhat large operation, budget is a HUGE consideration since we supply EVERYTHING.

If we have the wrong thing in the detail, it WILL cost us a huge sum of money. To that extent EVERY detail is reviewed and examined to ensure it is proper for the respective project, not by one person, but by a minimum of 3.

the beauty of "standard" details is they have been checked a couple of dozen times just this year.  So it is a very rare occurance to find and error in the standard details.

Sure it is about profit, but one of the biggest ways to increase profit is to reduce liability and culpability, which is something we have so far managed to do quite well.

Which is one of the reasons we use the standard detail setup.  The bulk of these details haven't changed in several years, some several decades.  They have been checked, re-checked, evaluated and re-evaluated dozens of times.  The designers have become quite familiar with their use and proper placement.  That level of experience with the data reduces our liability and culpability (no pun intended).

[Oak3s]

(feels like the thread is drifting off course)

if its not part of the project it shouldnt be on the project documents. if i paid for those drawings and noticed that 4 out of 10 details were not used i would be distraught. as a consumer i figure that what i get i paid for. if i get 10 but only need 6...next time im gonna get the six pack. its not like costco where a ten pack is a better deal than a 6 pack. i could give away those extra 4. or if one broke i could use the extra. details dont work that way.
if im reading a book and all of a sudden there is a page in that book thats from a different book.....and it happens oftern....i probably wont buy a book from that publishing company.

this is just my opinion. this is the way i would prefer to recieve construction documents, produce construction documents, and construct with those documents.

[CADaver]

if i paid for those drawings and noticed that 4 out of 10 details were not used i would be distraught. as a consumer i figure that what i get i paid for. if i get 10 but only need 6...next time im gonna get the six pack. its not like costco where a ten pack is a better deal than a 6 pack.

That is EXACTLY what it's like.  We'll give you 6 instead of 10, but it'll cost you a lot more. (about $10K)

[TR]

Why would you ever give a customer details that don't pertain to the job? If you ask me all that does is lead to confusion. If one of our customers read the wrong detail (trust me they have a hard enough time when you give them the right detail only), the concrete gets poured and our discharge piping doesn't line up with what's on the foundation we're in for a lot of heartache. I don't know about the industries you deal with but the municipal, and a good portion of the industrial, market will fight tooth and nail over $300.

Also a good portion of the municipal engineers would reject your drawings if you submitted those types of details to them.

[Dinosaur]

If the proper care is taken in how the details are grouped into sheets there should be relatively few details on any given sheet that are not used.  Our structural details were grouped by both building system (concrete, steel, precast, wood, etc.) and into foundation, intermediate floor and roof.  In most cases the detail sheets remained intact if they were needed at all and any job specific details were grouped into their own sheets.  We did change the unused details to a frozen layer and fill in with appropriate specfic details if the space was required in lieu of making a new sheet.

[grush]

A little off subject but here goes. I am in the process of opening a bakery. I needed to submit plans to the local AHJ for review and approval. I did some of the drawings, but the architect was hired though the building management company. The architect came in and did some field measurements. They went in for review and got rejected because we have to make the existing toilet ADA compliant and add some roof penetrations. He said that there would be a charge to add those details to the drawings because of the time involved. Now, throughout this process, I never told him that I am in the “industry” and in the know. When I told him that he was being facetious and all he had to do was drop in the detail because it is a standard detail(s), his jaw dropped. He wanted an additional $500 to cut and paste. I told him that I can even provide said details if he would like to drop the fee. He declined and there was no change order necessary. Now, I do all his fire alarm, CCTV & card access plans.

[whdjr]

It's quite obvious by reading these posts that each office/industry has it's own way of doing things they have done for years.  Now that we all know how each other operates maybe we will be more 'aware' in our own offices.

Good discussion Swampers!


Have a good 4th of July Weekend everyone and don't blow your fingers off with the firecrackers.