Topic: Details Paperspace or Modelspace?

[TimSpangler]

This is to all of you architectural types.  How do you handle your deatils and sections views?  Are the placed in Modlespace and annotated in Paperspace or are the placed in paperspace with the annotation already on them?

I have loads of standard details (footers, walls, etc) which are already noted.  I currently place them in model space then chane the text scale til it comes out looking good.  I have also played with just plopping them in paperspace and inverting the scale of the detail to fit the paper.  I am looking for differant ways of handling details and section to limit the amount of textstyles.

Also I currently draw the floor plan then x-ref it into the sheet drawing then I use layer control to show what needs to be shown in PS.  Has anyone used the sheetset manager? is it easy to use? Is it easy to set up?

Just fishing for other ways of controlling the drawing to see if there is an easier way.

Thanks

[whdjr]

Our firm tends to put them in Paperspace as to cut down on the number of regens for a viewport.  We draw the detail full scale and them annotate it to scale and then xref it to paperspace to scale.

[Fish]

I like having everything in paperspace so I draw the detail to scale and then scale it appropriately.  I make sure I note the scale factor below the detail on a layer that doesn't print.  My text and dims are in paperspace.

[Keith™]

details are in MS ... as they are part of the model ... with the advent of polygonal viewports it is simple to do a cut section on a specific point in the drawing and annotate that particular object. Of course that is on those that we actually "use" PS .... most of our drawings are simply not complex enough to justify the extra involved with maintaining PS

[TimSpangler]

Our firm tends to put them in Paperspace as to cut down on the number of regens for a viewport.  We draw the detail full scale and them annotate it to scale and then xref it to paperspace to scale.

I like that idea.  When you say you annotate them to scale how is this accomplished. If I xref it in at an inverted 1/4"=1' the text would be differant scale then if i xrefed it in at say 1/2"=1'

The text size is the biggest thing, triing to keep it uniform acrossed all sheets.  It would be nice if it got scaled like ltscale, based on the vport scale so if i annoted the detail text at 1/8" it would be scaled according to the vport scale.

Just dreaming I guess.

[jwisherd]

We draw everything in model space at full scale (feel there is greater accuracy) I then use polygonal mviews zoomed into a section for the detail, and note it in paperspace (locked mview). Both my sections and details are one in the same, becauses this reduces the number of objects to draw.

[TimSpangler]

I agree with drawing everything once then mview it to paperspace, great concept.  But i already have details drawn and annotated that i just drop into the drawing (MS) then I ceate vports to show that particular detail.  I then put the view title in PS and all of the annotation is still in MS I then go to MS select all of the text for that particular detail then I change the text height to show accordingly to the Vport scale.

It was just recently that I used to draw the Floorplan then I would copy it as many times as I need to for the differant disciplines. (OUCH alot of work if a change was needed.

I now create the Floorplan save it as MasterFloorPlan then xref it into the main drawing and I just draw everything on one floor plan and use layers to control the differant layouts (Electrical, Plumbing, etc),  This however has some limitations (based on not knowing enough about it probably).  When I change layouts i want differant layer states to show (How do you get this to work?).  I got a tool from DotSoft that works good except for the fact that when you change layouts it sets all the layer colors to white.

[CAB]

Changing Layer States
http://www.theswamp.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=5516

[CAB]

More on the drawing methods.
http://www.theswamp.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1248&highlight=floors

http://www.theswamp.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2932&highlight=second+floor

[hudster]

I have all my standard details the same size, and they are inserted into model space at the scale of the drawing so all the text etc is the same in all of them.

[CADaver]

"Standard Details" are on a sheet already, we just reference that sheet.

Custom details are just "zoomed in" parts of the model, annotated in PS.

[Dinosaur]

My first cad job was with some structural engineers, 1990, r10, no paperspace and no clue how to be efficient.  We built our detail library from scratch as each detail from their book was used on a project.  It was mandatory that the cad drawings resemble as closely as possible the look of hand drafted sheets.  Each detail had the same allotted space on the sheet - 12 per D size and 20 for E size drawings - each detail was a seperate drawing file that was modified as needed for individual applications.  No unused details were to be included so each detail sheet was unique for every project.  For ease of plotting, all titleblocks were at the plan scale of 1/8" = 1' in modelspace of course which meant calculating the scale factor to insert the details.  They remained blocks that were redefined when changes were made.  All very old school, but on reflection it worked quite well and the only thing I know that I would do differently even now in that situation would be xref the details into a 1:1 paperspace titleblock.

[whdjr]

"Standard Details" are on a sheet already, we just reference that sheet...

You guys aren't one of those companies that have a sheet with 20 details on it and 15 of the details have a square with a big 'X' thru it because they are not used on this job?  I hate that.  It just means people are too lazy to make a sheet specific for the project.

my 2c

[ronjonp]

Code: [Select]

You guys aren't one of those companies that have a sheet with 20 details on it and 15 of the details have a square with a big 'X' thru it because they are not used on this job? I hate that. It just means people are too lazy to make a sheet specific for the project.

I hate that too. We had to do that for a couple of jobs for the Army Corps.

[CADaver]

You guys aren't one of those companies that have a sheet with 20 details on it and 15 of the details have a square with a big 'X' thru it because they are not used on this job?

We don't bother putting the X thru the unused detail.  It's a generic detail sheet to which one is sent from the plans.  You're working the plans, it tells you to see detail 13 on sheet 28, you go find detail 13 on sheet 28.  You shouldn't know or care that detail 14 is never used on the project.

It just means people are too lazy to make a sheet specific for the project.

No, it means time is money and I'm on a fixed fee.  The project specific sheet comes out of my profit.  BUZZZZZ!! wrong answer.

[whdjr]

You guys aren't one of those companies that have a sheet with 20 details on it and 15 of the details have a square with a big 'X' thru it because they are not used on this job?

We don't bother putting the X thru the unused detail.  It's a generic detail sheet to which one is sent from the plans.  You're working the plans, it tells you to see detail 13 on sheet 28, you go find detail 13 on sheet 28.  You shouldn't know or care that detail 14 is never used on the project.

It just means people are too lazy to make a sheet specific for the project.

No, it means time is money and I'm on a fixed fee.  The project specific sheet comes out of my profit.  BUZZZZZ!! wrong answer.

Laziness or maybe it's because you can and nobody challenges it.  We send drawings back to the engineers all the time and tell them to remove all their extraneous crap from the drawings.  To you time is money, but to us, how many sheets are used is considered money as well.

[Keith™]

Across Florida, bulding departments will no longer accept plans with voided details (marked out), and they no longer accept general detail sheets that are not specifically part of the project. Now if I have a detail in the project that is not used, then that is ok, but the project name MUST be on that sheet with the details and there must be NO voided or marked out details.

So much for government ....

[CADaver]

Laziness or maybe it's because you can and nobody challenges it.  

We get challenged on it from time to time.  We send in a change order for the additional work with it's associated charges that must be paid prior to custom detail sets and the challeng goes away.

We send drawings back to the engineers all the time and tell them to remove all their extraneous crap from the drawings.

If it is not used why care?

To you time is money, but to us, how many sheets are used is considered money as well.

Only if you charge by the sheet.  Is anyone still doing that?  Our industry stopped that practice nearly 30 years ago.  Very often it is considerably cheaper to use more sheets than it is to cram a load of stuff on just a few sheets.  Paper is cheap.

[CADaver]

but the project name MUST be on that sheet with the details and there must be NO voided or marked out details.

That's what we do.  I have a little function that replaces the standards tileblock with the project titleblock

[whdjr]

We get challenged on it from time to time.  We send in a change order for the additional work with it's associated charges that must be paid prior to custom detail sets and the challeng goes away.

The amount of time you spend sending in the change order you could have spent correcting the sheet(s).  Don't you care how your sheets look?  We wouldn't dare send out a set with 5 sheets of details and 5 details per sheet that were mark as not used.  I could understand that concept on the drafting board but not with the computer.  The tool is there to use, why not use it instead continuing a practice started back in the stone ages.

If it is not used why care?

Because it looks back and it reflects back on the individual that produced the set.  It also clutters up a set of drawings with details that are not needed.

Only if you charge by the sheet.  Is anyone still doing that?  Our industry stopped that practice nearly 30 years ago.  Very often it is considerably cheaper to use more sheets than it is to cram a load of stuff on just a few sheets.  Paper is cheap.

We are charged for reproduction costs on a per sheet basis from our repographer so the number of wasted sheets does add up.

[CADaver]

Don't you care how your sheets look?

not when it takes my profits, I don't.  If the client wants to pay for extra work on a set of drawings that will be used for about 6 weeks then filed away, we will be happy to oblige.  But clients these days are bottom line oriented.

We wouldn't dare send out a set with 5 sheets of details and 5 details per sheet that were mark as not used.  

Good for you.  But we don't mark them as not used.

I could understand that concept on the drafting board but not with the computer.  The tool is there to use, why not use it instead continuing a practice started back in the stone ages.

we use it today for the same reason we did 30 years ago, it's faster and cheaper.  We get the job done in fewer hours, that means money in our pocket.

If it is not used why care?

Because it looks back and it reflects back on the individual that produced the set.  It also clutters up a set of drawings with details that are not needed.

Clients look at the cost of engineering, NOT how "pretty" the drawings were.  How do unused details clutter up anything? Pretend they're used.

We are charged for reproduction costs on a per sheet basis from our repographer so the number of wasted sheets does add up.

So are we, but we'd have to make 40 prints of each sheet to offset an hour.  Our contracts limit the prints of each revision to 6.

[CADaver]

The amount of time you spend sending in the change order you could have spent correcting the sheet(s).

8 standard detail sheets times 16 hours a sheet to modify and check the details for usage/non-usage, times $80 an hour BILLING rate equals $10,240, write a check for $10,240 and we'll erase details you aren't using anyway.  Oh, BTW, if you need one of those details later, it'll cost $500 each to put 'em back.

Does it really cost that much, heck no, these are punitive charges for being unprofitably picky.  When you look at our detail sheet, you won't know if the detail is being used or not, until you scour all 2500 project drawings making note of each detail's use.

[Keith™]

CADaver, am I to presume you get charged $2 per sheet for copy costs?
($80 / $2 = 40 sheets)

Our costs, while they are significantly lower than that (about 0.85 per sheet) does add up to significant costs when you are printing hundreds, if not thousands of extra pages per month.

We have a very similar situation to you. We have about 30 D-Size pages of typical details. We used to give every project 8 sets of those pages (8 x 30 x 0.89 = $213.60) ... not to mention the time involved in plotting, binding and delivering them to the client etc. After some considerable debate, we decided to use the method of incorporating only those details needed PER project. Now instead of our average size of plans being 45-50 pages, it is 15-20 pages ~ multiply that times the number of pages, subtracting the extra effort to grab only the details needed we ended up saving nearly $150 per project ... not counting postage and packaging costs.

It also reduced the number of mistakes in the field by people refering to the wrong detail. Sure, it's not our fault that the guy on the site can't tell Detail A from Detail C (even though it is clearly marked) .. but in the end, if the client is not happy, it costs us money in lost revenues and lost reputation.

We design around $75 million in homes every year and even though we are a rather small operation, budget is a HUGE consideration since we supply EVERYTHING.
A simple detail can mean the difference between an 0.85sf ceramic tile and $27sf imported marble. If we have the wrong thing in the detail, it WILL cost us a huge sum of money. To that extent EVERY detail is reviewed and examined to ensure it is proper for the respective project, not by one person, but by a minimum of 3.

Sure it is about profit, but one of the biggest ways to increase profit is to reduce liability and culpability, which is something we have so far managed to do quite well.

[CADaver]

CADaver, am I to presume you get charged $2 per sheet for copy costs?
($80 / $2 = 40 sheets)

That's the one-off fee, if we're printing several copies the price drops exponentially to about a buck a sheet.

when you are printing hundreds, if not thousands of extra pages per month.

We don't.  The only time these detail sheets are printed is when they are issued for construction or revised.  Long ago we decided that printing ALL the sheets in a set EVERY time one gets changed was a waste of time and money.  We only print what gets changed.  If the detail sheets don't get changed, they are printed once (6 sets.)

After some considerable debate, we decided to use the method of incorporating only those details needed PER project. Now instead of our average size of plans being 45-50 pages, it is 15-20 pages ~ multiply that times the number of pages, subtracting the extra effort to grab only the details needed we ended up saving nearly $150 per project ... not counting postage and packaging costs.

We might save 4 sheets out of 2500, not worth the effort.  Consider this as well, we issue packages of drawings throughout the course of a job.  The first set needs the standard details sent along with it for fabrication.  At that time we won't know which of the details will not be used for portions of the contract that will be completed in 8 months.  At a billing rate of $80 an hour, it would only take adding a couple of details to eat up the $150 savings.

It also reduced the number of mistakes in the field by people refering to the wrong detail. Sure, it's not our fault that the guy on the site can't tell Detail A from Detail C (even though it is clearly marked) .. but in the end, if the client is not happy, it costs us money in lost revenues and lost reputation.

Is this really a problem?  You've had somebody use detail C instead of A?  That's a new one on me, we've had 'em screw up detail A beyond recognition, but not use the wrong detail.

We design around $75 million in homes every year and even though we are a rather small operation, budget is a HUGE consideration since we supply EVERYTHING.

We do about 4 Billion a year in engineering out of this office, and about 4 times that in construction. Even though we are a somewhat large operation, budget is a HUGE consideration since we supply EVERYTHING.

If we have the wrong thing in the detail, it WILL cost us a huge sum of money. To that extent EVERY detail is reviewed and examined to ensure it is proper for the respective project, not by one person, but by a minimum of 3.

the beauty of "standard" details is they have been checked a couple of dozen times just this year.  So it is a very rare occurance to find and error in the standard details.

Sure it is about profit, but one of the biggest ways to increase profit is to reduce liability and culpability, which is something we have so far managed to do quite well.

Which is one of the reasons we use the standard detail setup.  The bulk of these details haven't changed in several years, some several decades.  They have been checked, re-checked, evaluated and re-evaluated dozens of times.  The designers have become quite familiar with their use and proper placement.  That level of experience with the data reduces our liability and culpability (no pun intended).

[Oak3s]

(feels like the thread is drifting off course)

if its not part of the project it shouldnt be on the project documents. if i paid for those drawings and noticed that 4 out of 10 details were not used i would be distraught. as a consumer i figure that what i get i paid for. if i get 10 but only need 6...next time im gonna get the six pack. its not like costco where a ten pack is a better deal than a 6 pack. i could give away those extra 4. or if one broke i could use the extra. details dont work that way.
if im reading a book and all of a sudden there is a page in that book thats from a different book.....and it happens oftern....i probably wont buy a book from that publishing company.

this is just my opinion. this is the way i would prefer to recieve construction documents, produce construction documents, and construct with those documents.

[CADaver]

if i paid for those drawings and noticed that 4 out of 10 details were not used i would be distraught. as a consumer i figure that what i get i paid for. if i get 10 but only need 6...next time im gonna get the six pack. its not like costco where a ten pack is a better deal than a 6 pack.

That is EXACTLY what it's like.  We'll give you 6 instead of 10, but it'll cost you a lot more. (about $10K)

[TR]

Why would you ever give a customer details that don't pertain to the job? If you ask me all that does is lead to confusion. If one of our customers read the wrong detail (trust me they have a hard enough time when you give them the right detail only), the concrete gets poured and our discharge piping doesn't line up with what's on the foundation we're in for a lot of heartache. I don't know about the industries you deal with but the municipal, and a good portion of the industrial, market will fight tooth and nail over $300.

Also a good portion of the municipal engineers would reject your drawings if you submitted those types of details to them.

[Dinosaur]

If the proper care is taken in how the details are grouped into sheets there should be relatively few details on any given sheet that are not used.  Our structural details were grouped by both building system (concrete, steel, precast, wood, etc.) and into foundation, intermediate floor and roof.  In most cases the detail sheets remained intact if they were needed at all and any job specific details were grouped into their own sheets.  We did change the unused details to a frozen layer and fill in with appropriate specfic details if the space was required in lieu of making a new sheet.

[grush]

A little off subject but here goes. I am in the process of opening a bakery. I needed to submit plans to the local AHJ for review and approval. I did some of the drawings, but the architect was hired though the building management company. The architect came in and did some field measurements. They went in for review and got rejected because we have to make the existing toilet ADA compliant and add some roof penetrations. He said that there would be a charge to add those details to the drawings because of the time involved. Now, throughout this process, I never told him that I am in the “industry” and in the know. When I told him that he was being facetious and all he had to do was drop in the detail because it is a standard detail(s), his jaw dropped. He wanted an additional $500 to cut and paste. I told him that I can even provide said details if he would like to drop the fee. He declined and there was no change order necessary. Now, I do all his fire alarm, CCTV & card access plans.

[whdjr]

It's quite obvious by reading these posts that each office/industry has it's own way of doing things they have done for years.  Now that we all know how each other operates maybe we will be more 'aware' in our own offices.

Good discussion Swampers!


Have a good 4th of July Weekend everyone and don't blow your fingers off with the firecrackers.

[TimSpangler]

With all of discussion on how they charge for details and how they put them on the drawing,  I would like to know where they put them PS or MS and how they are annotated.  

It has been a great discussion.

[grush]

With all of discussion on how they charge for details and how they put them on the drawing,  I would like to know where they put them PS or MS and how they are annotated.  

It has been a great discussion.

He put mine in MS. He would not release the dwg file to me but I asked him and he said they have about 50+ typical that they insert in MS and vp them out as necessary. Each dimscale is on a different layer so they just pick the scale they want the detail to be shown and freeze the other layers. They also said that they mix notes between MS & PS in some cases.

Pete

[Dinosaur]

. . . I would like to know where they put them PS or MS and how they are annotated . . .

All of m stuff was from in the early 90's in r10 and everything was in modelspace.  The details were all individual drawings that we blocked into empty titleblock sheets.

[CADaver]

Why would you ever give a customer details that don't pertain to the job? If you ask me all that does is lead to confusion.

Only if your sheets are confusing.

If one of our customers read the wrong detail (trust me they have a hard enough time when you give them the right detail only), the concrete gets poured and our discharge piping doesn't line up with what's on the foundation we're in for a lot of heartache.

We are (at least I am) talking about generic details; ie: brace framing, pinned or moment base plates, moment end plates. Look HERE

I don't know about the industries you deal with but the municipal, and a good portion of the industrial, market will fight tooth and nail over $300.

Seen 'em fight over a lot less.

Also a good portion of the municipal engineers would reject your drawings if you submitted those types of details to them.

Haven't had any trouble yet, and we've worked with littluns' and biguns'

[CADaver]

I would like to know where they put them PS or MS and how they are annotated.

Like Dinosaur, ours have been around for some time.  When R11 came out and we switched over to PS/MS, we left the full detail complete with annotation in MS, and added a border and border-type annotation in PS.  That way as we change clients, we just need to change the border/titleblock/logo.

[pmvliet]

my train of thought is as follows.

For plain typical, generic details that can be used from job to job, keep the detail at a 1:1 scale, linework, dimensions, text etc... all together in modelspace. This makes it very easy to bring that detail into another job.
I prefer just about everything in modelspace but there are exceptions.

You or someone else mentioned about text and dimension styles. use one dimension style and text style. Change your dimscale accordingly for your particular detail. Same with text style. Different scales will have different scales. You may want a unique text style for details so that it stays independant of your drawing.

If it is just a drawing with details, I place it in  (+x, +y).
if there are plans and details, plan goes in (+x, +y) and details go in (+x,-y).

There are always exceptions. Something like wall sections could have the linework in modelspace and annotated in paperspace. But Usually a wall sections would be unique to the project and not taken to another project. But that is not always true as well...

On the side topic that this thread had taken. Some firms that do very repetitive type work (retail especially) where a project manager may have to review a store a day with 15-20 drawings, they want to see the same detail in the same place on each job. if it is used or not, he doesn't care, he wants the ease of knowing that detail is where it is in the prototype set. it would really mess with him, if we reorganized the set to condense the number of pages and his details are all over the place.

Pieter

[dubb]

i draw them in model and plot them in model

sometimes i draw them in model and plot them in paper...

[Andrea]

tim,

I personaly prefert to see details in Modelspace..
why ?

Because you can use it with XREF and INSERT for other drawings if you need without readjusting some other variables like the ltscale and so on...

Also, if the problem is only the textsize...you can take a look to
HyperTEXT here..

http://www.caddepot.com/cgi-bin/cfiles/cfiles.cgi?0,0,0,0,5,2033

this will adjust all TEXT and MTEXT in any Mview...
this freeware allow also to custom layer and color...

I hope that my post will be useful.

good luck.