Author Topic: Nested Blocks Issue  (Read 10838 times)

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novice

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Nested Blocks Issue
« on: September 24, 2015, 06:34:24 PM »
I've dramatically increased my use of AutoCAD blocks lately.

I work in multiple files, and I might do my designing in any one of them. Whatever my latest design update is, I need to be able to copy/paste stuff into other files. I need to keep propagating my new work into various files.

The issue is AutoCAD is designed to protect those files, as if my new work is a virus or something. But it's not. I need to be able to constantly overwrite outdated stuff with new, improved stuff.

My blocks are kind of complex. Lots of nesting. And I use copy/paste all the time. "Get more organized" with block naming, or filing (wblocks or xrefs) is not an option, for very practical reasons. I'm designing stuff. That stuff is in constant flux for quite a while, and it's not a linear process.

Any ideas? I don't ask this question casually - I've spent a lot of time searching the internet for practical answers. I've found none of any substance so far.

57gmc

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Re: Nested Blocks Issue
« Reply #1 on: September 24, 2015, 07:13:38 PM »
By "virus", are you referring to the fact that when you paste in a block, that duplicate definitions are ignored? The only way to do what you want OOTB is to use the redefine feature of the INSERT command. Issue the INSERT command, click on the browse button and browse to your new block definition (you may have to wblock from another dwg first), hit the OK button and it will ask you to redifine the existing block. Choose YES. then continue inserting. When you get to the point where it is asking you to pick an insertion point, hit ESC. The command will quit without inserting, but the block will have been redefined.

Rob...

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Re: Nested Blocks Issue
« Reply #2 on: September 25, 2015, 07:00:34 AM »
I need to keep propagating my new work into various files.

This sounds like a job for XREFs. Blocks within files is cumbersome at best as you are finding out.

"Get more organized" with block naming, or filing (wblocks or xrefs) is not an option, for very practical reasons. I'm designing stuff. That stuff is in constant flux for quite a while, and it's not a linear process.

I'm afraid organization may be the only option. In my non-work life, I tend to not be very organized. At work, I am meticulous when it comes to file management. Maybe if you describe your work flow in more detail, we can give you suggestions. I'm sure someone has worked in a similar fashion and can give you some pointers.

If you can't make the program work with your process, you probably will need to change the process.
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novice

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Re: Nested Blocks Issue
« Reply #3 on: September 25, 2015, 07:17:09 AM »
By "virus", are you referring to the fact that when you paste in a block, that duplicate definitions are ignored? The only way to do what you want OOTB is to use the redefine feature of the INSERT command. Issue the INSERT command, click on the browse button and browse to your new block definition (you may have to wblock from another dwg first), hit the OK button and it will ask you to redifine the existing block. Choose YES. then continue inserting. When you get to the point where it is asking you to pick an insertion point, hit ESC. The command will quit without inserting, but the block will have been redefined.

Thanks for the response, 57gmc. Aside from the fact that I don't know what "OOTB" means, I understand your suggestion. The problem for me is not only that the amount of time it would take for me to do an otherwise simple task increases exponentially (if I undertake to organize hundreds of constantly changing block definitions externally, wblock or xref), but it also forces me into a work process completely at odds with an appropriate creative process. I'll say more when I respond to Rob.

novice

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Re: Nested Blocks Issue
« Reply #4 on: September 25, 2015, 08:07:43 AM »
I need to keep propagating my new work into various files.

This sounds like a job for XREFs. Blocks within files is cumbersome at best as you are finding out.

"Get more organized" with block naming, or filing (wblocks or xrefs) is not an option, for very practical reasons. I'm designing stuff. That stuff is in constant flux for quite a while, and it's not a linear process.

I'm afraid organization may be the only option. In my non-work life, I tend to not be very organized. At work, I am meticulous when it comes to file management. Maybe if you describe your work flow in more detail, we can give you suggestions. I'm sure someone has worked in a similar fashion and can give you some pointers.

If you can't make the program work with your process, you probably will need to change the process.

I'm afraid organization may be the only option as well, though it would be of a mind-numbing complexity in my case. I believe I'm pretty meticulous as well, but some kinds of meticulous put people out of business. I can't afford to be that meticulous.

The stuff I design is all about parts, assemblies, machines, and systems. I've been using blocks lately to mirror this structure, which is pretty straightforward in principle - make a block out of a part, make a block out of an assembly that's an assemblage of blocks of parts, make a block out of a machine, that's an assemblage of blocks of assemblies which are themselves assemblages of blocks of parts... It's all nesting, all the way down.

I always aim to standardize, at any and all of these levels, but there's a process involved in getting there. And that process happens when working on real projects that need to get done in certain timeframes. Parts get redesigned when I see how the machines function as a system. It's top-down and bottom-up all the time. It's a turbulent process, and it needs to be.

I didn't have these problems in the past, though. One, I didn't use blocks as much (or wblocks or xrefs). And two, I did all my work in one file, so to the extent that I did use blocks, redefining them didn't cause these problems. Both of these factors changed recently as my projects got more complex and I now have detailers working for me. Multiple files means multiple people working on a single project at once, and blocks organize my designs so that detailers can more easily know what they are looking at.

One example of how the current process doesn't work for me is that the blocks I make as I'm designing have casual names, often randomly generated. When the design (say, of a machine) gets to the final detailing phase, accurate/useful blocks are made, which I can then put together as a system. This system is then placed in multiple contexts. I try to make sure blocks are renamed at a certain point, with a nice, formal name, once I get to an appropriately stable stage in the process. But there's just too much nesting - some nested block is going to get inserted into a different file, it will be redefined back to an old definition, and I'm none the wiser. There is no way for me to know that the information is now wrong.

Rob...

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Re: Nested Blocks Issue
« Reply #5 on: September 25, 2015, 08:37:15 AM »
Going to multiple files and multiple users would strongly suggest getting away from using blocks and opt for XREFs. As changes are made to the files, those changes can be seen on the fly with a simple reload.

No matter what choice you make, you should have a part/assembly naming standard that can be implemented from the initial creation of the parts.

XREFs are going to have some speed bumps that you will have to slow down and strategize for. Circular references and overlay vs. attach will probably be the biggest headaches at first with the nesting levels but once you get your head around them, it will make sense.

With that being said, I'm wondering if there is software that has the ability to have multiple people working on the same machine at the same time, similar to Revit's environment for your machines.
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mjfarrell

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Re: Nested Blocks Issue
« Reply #6 on: September 25, 2015, 08:50:51 AM »
If your 'block' definitions are constantly changing, you should not be using blocks.

In theory blocks are for things that are relatively static in nature.

As above XREF methods will resolve most of this issue.

And unless you are a bird, 'nesting' blocks inside blocks is rarely a good thing.

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Michael Farrell
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novice

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Re: Nested Blocks Issue
« Reply #7 on: September 25, 2015, 09:30:20 AM »
Found this, here at The Swamp.

All very tidy, and I'm sure it's a great approach for many, but it won't work for me.

Really, blocks and nested blocks are fantastic to a very large extent. I'm not sure why anyone would think otherwise. But we're all in our own particular situations, working in ways that make a lot of sense based on those situations.

The only thing missing for me when it comes to blocks is the ability to propagate my new work into my older work. That AutoCAD won't let me do this is a shame (though I do understand their fears). Worse though, is that I don't even get a warning that some nested block I'm inserting is being redefined without my knowledge. That is inexcusable.

Not sure how I will move forward at this point.

Rob...

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Re: Nested Blocks Issue
« Reply #8 on: September 25, 2015, 09:39:43 AM »
Found this, here at The Swamp.

All very tidy, and I'm sure it's a great approach for many, but it won't work for me.

Why not?

The only thing missing for me when it comes to blocks is the ability to propagate my new work into my older work. That AutoCAD won't let me do this is a shame (though I do understand their fears). Worse though, is that I don't even get a warning that some nested block I'm inserting is being redefined without my knowledge. That is inexcusable.

That's because you are trying to use blocks in a way that they were not intended to be used.

The propagating that you want is accomplished with XREFs. That is how they were intended to be used.
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mjfarrell

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Re: Nested Blocks Issue
« Reply #9 on: September 25, 2015, 09:42:12 AM »
Found this, here at The Swamp.



The only thing missing for me when it comes to blocks is the ability to propagate my new work into my older work. That AutoCAD won't let me do this is a shame (though I do understand their fears). Worse though, is that I don't even get a warning that some nested block I'm inserting is being redefined without my knowledge. That is inexcusable.


Design Center will allow a Rt-Click  REDEFINE option for blocks.

Most likely the issue is how deep you might be nesting blocks.
And therein lies the 'problem' , if one will not accept the definition of the problem no solution will ever present itself.
Despite your assurances that blocks work for you, clearly they are not working as efficiently as you want them to, and or at all.

You are now in a loop of attempting to 'solve' a problem without properly defining it.
Be your Best


Michael Farrell
http://primeservicesglobal.com/

novice

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Re: Nested Blocks Issue
« Reply #10 on: September 25, 2015, 09:54:02 AM »
Found this, here at The Swamp.

All very tidy, and I'm sure it's a great approach for many, but it won't work for me.

Why not?

The only thing missing for me when it comes to blocks is the ability to propagate my new work into my older work. That AutoCAD won't let me do this is a shame (though I do understand their fears). Worse though, is that I don't even get a warning that some nested block I'm inserting is being redefined without my knowledge. That is inexcusable.

That's because you are trying to use blocks in a way that they were not intended to be used.

The propagating that you want is accomplished with XREFs. That is how they were intended to be used.

I understand that I'm not using blocks in a way that AutoCAD handles well. I agree with you.

It doesn't work for me for the reasons I already described to the best of my ability.

I understand there is probably no good solution for me at this time. This is why people still invent things like new software. I'll deal with it.

Thanks for your help - it's ok if it just doesn't work for me.

novice

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Re: Nested Blocks Issue
« Reply #11 on: September 25, 2015, 09:55:32 AM »
Found this, here at The Swamp.



The only thing missing for me when it comes to blocks is the ability to propagate my new work into my older work. That AutoCAD won't let me do this is a shame (though I do understand their fears). Worse though, is that I don't even get a warning that some nested block I'm inserting is being redefined without my knowledge. That is inexcusable.


Design Center will allow a Rt-Click  REDEFINE option for blocks.

Most likely the issue is how deep you might be nesting blocks.
And therein lies the 'problem' , if one will not accept the definition of the problem no solution will ever present itself.
Despite your assurances that blocks work for you, clearly they are not working as efficiently as you want them to, and or at all.

You are now in a loop of attempting to 'solve' a problem without properly defining it.

I'm not sure where this is coming from. I've clearly stated the problem, there are no good solutions at this time, and I will make do. It's ok.

Rob...

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Re: Nested Blocks Issue
« Reply #12 on: September 25, 2015, 09:56:56 AM »
It doesn't work for me for the reasons I already described to the best of my ability.

I understand there is probably no good solution for me at this time.

Actually, I don't see an explanation as to why XREFs will not work for you. It seems that is the solution.
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novice

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Re: Nested Blocks Issue
« Reply #13 on: September 25, 2015, 10:02:04 AM »
It doesn't work for me for the reasons I already described to the best of my ability.

I understand there is probably no good solution for me at this time.

Actually, I don't see an explanation as to why XREFs will not work for you. It seems that is the solution.

It's simply too formal and cumbersome for how I need to work.

Rob...

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Re: Nested Blocks Issue
« Reply #14 on: September 25, 2015, 10:07:48 AM »
You are not the first person that needs to work like you do. The solutions are out there. XREFs were designed for exactly what you are describing. I really think you should explore that as an option before writing it off. That is, unless you plan on looking for another software solution. Even if you find one, it is going to have a similar work flow to using XREFs.
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