Topic: perpetual licenses

[Rob...]

What?! That's ludicrous. That's what engineers are for. I'm not responsible in any way, even if I do design work.

[cadtag]

What?! That's ludicrous. That's what engineers are for. I'm not responsible in any way, even if I do design work.

If the person drawing the plans that included the problematic dimensions is not responsible.... who is?  (presuming side work for a contractor using rented software, no PE or RA signature or seal required).

If you're going to reject responsibility (and I agree that you should) then either you work solely with a contract that specifically disclaims all liability, or only perform design work under the umbrella of licensed professional who is legally responsible for the content of the drawings.  There's a reason that engineers carry liability insurance, and errors & omissions insurance, and pay the hefty premiums.  And that's exactly why all the side work I've done in the last couple of decades has been for a PE.

[Rob...]

Drafters cannot be held responsible for anything more than accurate plans. My name does not appear on any documentation. If a stamp is not required, the responsibility would fall on the contractor, as they are required to ensure everything is to code. They are the ones that have to deal with the building officials. If there are drafting errors, the plans should be fixed. A verbal contract to deliver accurate drawings is all I've ever needed.  If I do design work, the person reviewing my drawings is responsible for the final design. I just follow their direction.

[mjfarrell]

I don't see that person getting much work under those restrictive conditions.

I've actually gotten side jobs at a premium for small contractors because I was creating all the content. Subsequent jobs using same content were at normal prices. All project .dwgs were handed over.

And those are NOT the conditions I was speaking about.

[cadtag]

Drafters cannot be held responsible for anything more than accurate plans. My name does not appear on any documentation. If a stamp is not required, the responsibility would fall on the contractor, as they are required to ensure everything is to code. They are the ones that have to deal with the building officials. If there are drafting errors, the plans should be fixed. A verbal contract to deliver accurate drawings is all I've ever needed.  If I do design work, the person reviewing my drawings is responsible for the final design. I just follow their direction.

I'm not sure why you would think that a drafter doing freelance design work has a get-out-of-jail-free card.  My liability for the work I perform on my own is part and parcel of my responsibility, and is only limited by whatever contract I'm working under.  When the fecal byproducts encounter the oscillating air handling unit, a verbal contract is worth exactly the paper its written on.  One good reason to perform side work only with a PE or  RA who is signing and sealing the drawings, & taking professional responsibility.

The contractor you are drafting for may bear the brunt of responsibility for permitting and compliance, but unless your written agreement with him spells out clearly that you decline, and he accepts, all liability for conformance, buildability, accuracy, compliance, etc. and he agrees to indemnify you,  it's entirely possible that you could be held accountable for part of whatever damages are awarded in court.  Heck, a lawyer may decide to include the drafter in the owner is extremely pissed off and want to nail everyone associated with the job to the proverbial wall.

Not putting your name on the sheets is zero protection.  If the contractor goes after you for that 4" elevation glitch, he already knows who you are.  And if the owner who's suing the contractor asks, you better believe the GC will identify you in a heartbeat when he's deposed and the plaintiff's attorney asks who put the dimension in the plans.

Really, the smart thing to do if you are going to do house plans for a GC, is to set up as an LLC and run all expenses and payments through the LLC's separate bank account.  At least that way you're only liable up to the limits of the LLC's assets.  That makes the IRS happier too.  And when the Infernal Revenue Service is unhappy, everyone's unhappy.

[Rob...]

If I had to protect myself in the way that you are describing, I would have to charge a lot more money. My clients take the responsibility and get good work at a reasonable price.

For side work, I'm hired as a drafter. It's that simple. Can you put liability on a CAD jockey? I don't think so. I help with the design but I'm not a designer. Everything I do is checked and/or verified one way or another by the client. I do not submit the documents to anyone but my client and they do the actual submissions. You tell me how I can be held responsible by any stretch of the imagination. Courts require contracts stating responsibility and/or proof.

What can they say? "Oh, the drafter made a mistake and I didn't catch it. Make sure you get some of that from him." Like that's going to fly in court.

The places that I've worked full time can not put any design liability on their drafter/designers. If there was any risk there, we would get paid a lot more and we would need a contract spelling out our liability.

[cadtag]

If I had to protect myself in the way that you are describing, I would have to charge a lot more money.

Setting up an LLC and business bank account would probably run a couple of hundred US$.  That's a lot cheaper than having all your assets seized and your wages garnished to settle a civil judgement.

For side work, I'm hired as a drafter. It's that simple. Can you put liability on a CAD jockey?

For side work, you're an independent contractor, performing work for hire.  Why on earth do you believe you are immune from responsibility and liability?  That's not the same thing as selling software licenses with an EULA.

Courts require contracts stating responsibility and/or proof.

uhmmmm, nope.  Better talk to an attorney.  Lawyers and insurers are really good at allocating percentages of liability when they can convince a jury or a judge that there's a reason to do so.  And all the 'proof' required would be the deposition of the contractor stating that he hired you to create building plans.  Unless you propose perjury and denying under oath that you drafted the plans?

What can they say? "Oh, the drafter made a mistake and I didn't catch it. Make sure you get some of that from him." Like that's going to fly in court.

The plaintiff attorney can certainly say the independent contractor performing the work failed to perform due diligence, and as a direct result of his negligence and errors, my client  has sustained damages of $XXX,XXX.xx dollars.  Whether the judge/jury buy that is a question that can only be answered in court.  If the drawings you generate end up being signed and sealed by a registered professional, that's a different kettle of fish.  The PE has legal responsibility and liability for your work then.  A contractor who hires you to draw up house plans doesn't have the same standing as a licensed professional.

The places that I've worked full time can not put any design liability on their drafter/designers.

Yes, and that's one of the differences between an employee and an independent contractor.  In the former scenario, you are working as an employee under the direct supervision of a manager,and the company is liable for your activities.  in the latter, you are working for yourself as an independent businessman, and responsible for yourself.  I'm willing to bet a cookie that your full time employers have either Inc. or LLC as part of their business name, and that's the name on the invoices they send out, and the checks they write.  Almost certainly they are not writing your paycheck against their personal checking account.  Equally certainly, they carry liability insurance and if licensed professionals, errors and omissions insurance.

Look, if your plan works for you, great.  And as long as you understand and accept the risks, that's your choice.  Just make sure it's an informed choice.  For some free advice and guidance, see if there's a SCORE group you can meet up with near you.   www.score.org.

[Rob...]

I would agree with you about protecting myself, IF we were talking about something other than the occasional side job AND I was taking responsibility for the design. My product is drawings. I hand them off to the client. They review them. Changes and corrections are done throughout the course of the project. This happens multiple times. The client pays me at the end of each project. I don't get paid until they are satisfied with every square inch of every sheet. I don't get more money when the drawings are accepted for permitting. In fact, if there is anything on the drawings that needs to be changed or fixed in order to get a permit, I get paid for the extra time. It's kind of like photo processing. I'm not responsible for the content and once you accept the prints, my job is done. I just happen to be able to use my experience to offer advice and/or point out dependencies in the drawings.

[dgorsman]

And, you are more than likely good under those circumstances.  But for most I would still recommend incorporating as an LLC.  Its not that expensive for the benefits it provides.