Author Topic: Censoring on adndevblog  (Read 12592 times)

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TheMaster

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Censoring on adndevblog
« on: July 07, 2012, 11:59:52 AM »
Two recent comments I posted on the adndevblog have been deleted.

They were comments to this topic:

http://adndevblog.typepad.com/autocad/2012/07/performance-perception-versus-reality.html

My first comment included a rant about how AutoCAD was never brought out of the dark ages of computing (aside from the cosmetic aspects), specifically with regards to parallel execution and leveraging multiple CPU cores, and rather than doing the work to make that happen, Autodesk is instead offering us CPU time on a server in a datacenter (e.g., cloud/Autodesk 360).  Going only from memory, my comment ended with "Sure - It's got a modern, glitzy user interface, but still can't walk and chew gum at the same time".

In my second comment, I expressed my disagreement with this statement from that post:

Quote
Any optimization work over and above removing the ‘perception’ of a delay is essentially wasted effort.

I disagreed with that statement and gave my reasons, namely that when writing reusable/shared library code, one cannot predict how or where that code will eventually be used, and for that reason, it pays to optimize that kind of code even when there may be no immediate, demonstrable, real-world case where the optimization can result in a perceptible difference.

Well, if I do post a comment there again, I'll be sure to put a copy of it here.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2012, 12:32:02 PM by TheMaster »

huiz

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Re: Censoring on adndevblog
« Reply #1 on: July 07, 2012, 03:23:27 PM »
What if this post here is disappeared tomorrow? ;-)
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Jeff H

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Re: Censoring on adndevblog
« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2012, 04:15:13 PM »
What if this post here is disappeared tomorrow? ;)

Then tommorrow this thread would only contain original post and maybe still this one and would have to remove the quote from this one to totally remove it.
 
 

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Re: Censoring on adndevblog
« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2012, 05:55:41 PM »
Tony, I read your comments and saw nothing that warranted removal. It struck a chord with me because I've been bemused by the Autodesk push for the cloud in favour of other options.

I recall when reading the microsecond latency cost comment that I wondered if AutoDesk had calculated how much each product crash cost users; and how much they had saved at the cost to developers (and users) by not providing timely documentation.

 
Huez,
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Keith™

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Re: Censoring on adndevblog
« Reply #4 on: July 07, 2012, 06:02:43 PM »
While I agree with the sentement that Autodesk should make its software able to use multiple CPUs, I support their decision to delete such posts that call into question their motives and/or that disparage their product.

There are a great number of outlets where one can post items that point out obvious flaws and/or shortcomings in products. TheSwamp is a perfect location for example, but it is not reasonable to expect that any company will support posts on their forums or those of their partners that disparage their product.

If I produce a product, I'd certainly not allow random people to post disparaging remarks on a forum that I operate. I seriously doubt anyone would.
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TheMaster

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Re: Censoring on adndevblog
« Reply #5 on: July 07, 2012, 07:13:22 PM »
While I agree with the sentement that Autodesk should make its software able to use multiple CPUs, I support their decision to delete such posts that call into question their motives and/or that disparage their product.

There are a great number of outlets where one can post items that point out obvious flaws and/or shortcomings in products. TheSwamp is a perfect location for example, but it is not reasonable to expect that any company will support posts on their forums or those of their partners that disparage their product.

If I produce a product, I'd certainly not allow random people to post disparaging remarks on a forum that I operate. I seriously doubt anyone would.

Feel free to mislabel criticism as 'disparage', but that dog won't hunt here.

Some of us have a flair for the dramatic, and others lack the intestinal fortitude and courage to take their lumps in public, as they should. That was only how I ended my comment. You didn't see the other 95% of it. But it sure is interesting that you could form an opinion based on how little you know about the rest of what I had to say in that comment, eh?

If more customers were hammering away at them over the years in public rather than using the means they provide (which is by-design intended to keep customer feedback out of the public eye), then I very much doubt that today we would still have an AutoCAD that can't walk and chew gum at the same time.

I'm confident that the reason Autodesk has left AutoCAD to languish in the single-threaded, single-cpu world, is mainly because their long-term strategy is to migrate customers away from AutoCAD, to other products, and/or to the 'cloud' and more significantly, SAAS.

Having unpopular intentions, and acting to conceal them through censorship are two different things. I can't find sympathy for those who believe the latter is any better than any criticism they censor, even when there's a little salt and pepper sprinkled on it.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2012, 10:33:16 PM by TheMaster »

Keith™

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Re: Censoring on adndevblog
« Reply #6 on: July 08, 2012, 01:20:17 AM »
Feel free to mislabel criticism as 'disparage', but that dog won't hunt here.
According to thesaurus.com, the definition of disparage is "criticize, detract from" .. but I'll accept criticize as an alternate word if you like, because they are essentially the same thing.

Some of us have a flair for the dramatic, and others lack the intestinal fortitude and courage to take their lumps in public, as they should. That was only how I ended my comment. You didn't see the other 95% of it. But it sure is interesting that you could form an opinion based on how little you know about the rest of what I had to say in that comment, eh?

What you said or didn't say is irrelevant. My comments were based on what you provided here ... i.e. your post was deleted on the ADN site and you think that it was censorship. Although, based on what you posted here (i.e. what you said you posted there), at least the first post seemed a bit over the top.

Perhaps my method of dealing with criticizm is different. I find I get what I want more often when I present a well thought out case. For example, rather than calling a product something that "was never brought out of the dark ages", I might offer reasons why the product should rightly be updated to include the capabilities of modern multi-core processors (i.e. much larger file size, the availability of multi-core systems, more complex design requirements etc.) By taking a hammer to the problem, you merely ended up with broken glass. It very well may have been broken in the long run, but I suspect your comments would have been preserved.

I stand by my comments and I suspect that if someone came to your website and posted something about you or your product, you probably wouldn't think very long before removing the critical content.

That doesn't make them a good company or their actions good. I merely stated that their actions were justifiable because they own the forum. As owners, they have the right to delete whatever they decide to delete (or not delete as far as that is concerned).

If more customers were hammering away at them over the years in public rather than using the means they provide (which is by-design intended to keep customer feedback out of the public eye), then I very much doubt that today we would still have an AutoCAD that can't walk and chew gum at the same time.

You are absolutely correct!

I also suspect that just about every company keeps its negative customer feedback private. To make it public would be counter-productive to their marketing needs. Heck, there are plenty of places where negative comments about a product can be made. To expect that a company would publish someone's critical comments alongside the ones touting all the virtues of their product is silly.

I'm confident that the reason Autodesk has left AutoCAD to languish in the single-threaded, single-cpu world, is mainly because their long-term strategy is to migrate customers away from AutoCAD, to other products, and/or to the 'cloud' and more significantly, SAAS.

That may very well be the case. I can't fault them for that either. Would you rather they simply stopped producing AutoCAD, then force their clients to move to other solutions? That wouldn't be very smart now would it. However, if they "encourage" their clients to migrate because "Hey this *other* product does exactly what you are asking for in *this* product", then so be it. Many will migrate and their business strategies will be met.

Contrary to what you seem to be saying (you will correct me if I am wrong), Autodesk doesn't need to be concerned with whether their product meets your long-term stategies, they only care that you are purchasing their product.

A better solution might be to use a different product. Of course if there is no competing product that meets your needs, then you have to ask if your needs are so much more important than the needs of the market. Chances are Autodesk doesn't think so, not only that, their competitors that also don't meet your needs also probably don't think so.

Having unpopular intentions, and acting to conceal them through censorship are two different things. I can't find sympathy for those who believe the latter is any better than any criticism they censor, even when there's a little salt and pepper sprinkled on it.

I don't know where to draw the line in the sand. As you pointed out, I don't have the benefit of knowing what your post contained. However, as far as I am concerned, the content of the post is irrelevant. You could have just as well posted something about your child's birthday. The end result is the same. As participants in a forum that is managed by a company (in this case Autodesk), we have no reasonable expectation that our comments will remain on the site or that any specific comments will be allowed.

That might suck balls, but that is how it is. I don't have to agree with what Autodesk did, but I do support their right to do it.

That all being said, I would still be angry if they deleted my posts .. I might even escalate the anger to management .. heck I might even refuse to use their product. If enough folks did, they would soon see the error of their ways.

Does that make any sense?
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TheMaster

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Re: Censoring on adndevblog
« Reply #7 on: July 08, 2012, 02:22:25 PM »
Feel free to mislabel criticism as 'disparage', but that dog won't hunt here.
According to thesaurus.com, the definition of disparage is "criticize, detract from" .. but I'll accept criticize as an alternate word if you like, because they are essentially the same thing.
So, it is criticism you have an issue with?
Quote
Some of us have a flair for the dramatic, and others lack the intestinal fortitude and courage to take their lumps in public, as they should. That was only how I ended my comment. You didn't see the other 95% of it. But it sure is interesting that you could form an opinion based on how little you know about the rest of what I had to say in that comment, eh?

What you said or didn't say is irrelevant.


Sorry, it certainly is relevant. Let's not forget how many times we see people being maligned by being quoted out of context. I suppose that's fine as long as you're not the one that was quoted out of context.
Quote
My comments were based on what you provided here ... Perhaps my method of dealing with criticizm is different. I find I get what I want more often when I present a well thought out case.

Sorry, but that is a bit naive.  You'll never get what you want when the one you are requesting it from cannot or will not reveal their true reasons and motives for their unwillingness to accomodate you in the first place. Do you actually believe they never considered making AutoCAD more capable of leveraging multiple processors? Do you honestly believe it is at all necessary for customers like you to educate them about the profound benefits that would result from multiple processor support? You talk as if this were the first time that anyone raised the issue of multiple processor support. Over the six years since Intel introduced the first multi-core CPU, hundreds if not thousands have already done what you say you would do, and tell us, what has it gotten them?

If I recall correctly, back when the first Core 2 processors were introduced, even many Autodesk people were seemingly excited about the possibilities, that is until management told them to stop talking about that, and to start talking about the cloud. It's more than ironic to see Kean Walmsley espousing the benefits of F# and parallel execution for developing plug-ins that leverage multiple processors, until he discovered that a major barricade to that goal was AutoCAD and its inherent lack of thread-safe code.

Quote
For example, rather than calling a product something that "was never brought out of the dark ages"

Again, that may be a bit dramatic, but also quite true.

Quote
I stand by my comments and I suspect that if someone came to your website and posted something about you or your product, you probably wouldn't think very long before removing the critical content.
Sorry, that's not true. First, I don't offer products that compete against each other, so I don't have to avoid having to admit that a product is intentionally being suffocated or neglected because my marketing objectives are to get customers to abandon it and switch to another product I'm offering them.

I welcome criticism as long as it is reasonably constructive, even if it expressed with a bit of dramatic flair. I would be happy to confront and address any and all legitimate criticism I get, not only on a website, but anywhere I post code or participate in community discussions. Most competent professionals have no problem with receiving criticism publicily, because they can deal with it. What I've noticed is that those who usually don't react well to public criticism are charletans and others that are in the habit of grossly misrepresenting their professional qualifications to others.

Quote
That doesn't make them a good company or their actions good. I merely stated that their actions were justifiable because they own the forum. As owners, they have the right to delete whatever they decide to delete (or not delete as far as that is concerned).


Whether it is within their right to censor is not the issue. We all know they are within their right to do it, but having the right to do it doesn't mean doing it is right.

Quote

If more customers were hammering away at them over the years in public rather than using the means they provide (which is by-design intended to keep customer feedback out of the public eye), then I very much doubt that today we would still have an AutoCAD that can't walk and chew gum at the same time.

You are absolutely correct!

I also suspect that just about every company keeps its negative customer feedback private. To make it public would be counter-productive to their marketing needs.


Well you're wrong about that. Microsoft and many others do not make their customer feedback private. They have portals that anyone can visit to view it. You can even go there and see my own negative feedback.

As far as marketing needs, that's the whole point. It is keeping their marketing agenda out of public discussion that is their underlying goal for censoring and keeping customer feedback non-public. And who cares about the customers that make major, long-term investments in the products they would like to retire, right?


Quote
I'm confident that the reason Autodesk has left AutoCAD to languish in the single-threaded, single-cpu world, is mainly because their long-term strategy is to migrate customers away from AutoCAD, to other products, and/or to the 'cloud' and more significantly, SAAS.

That may very well be the case. I can't fault them for that either. Would you rather they simply stopped producing AutoCAD, then force their clients to move to other solutions? That wouldn't be very smart now would it. However, if they "encourage" their clients to migrate because "Hey this *other* product does exactly what you are asking for in *this* product", then so be it. Many will migrate and their business strategies will be met.


If that had worked (which I don't believe it has), there would've been be no need to leave the legacy product impaired, or to sabotage it (or perhaps you don't even suspect that the AutoCAD 2013 online documentation is a form of sabotage?).

Quote

Contrary to what you seem to be saying (you will correct me if I am wrong), Autodesk doesn't need to be concerned with whether their product meets your long-term stategies, they only care that you are purchasing their product.

A better solution might be to use a different product. Of course if there is no competing product that meets your needs, then you have to ask if your needs are so much more important than the needs of the market. Chances are Autodesk doesn't think so, not only that, their competitors that also don't meet your needs also probably don't think so.

I know many who are using different products, for a variety of reasons. That's why Autodesk spends so much money on lawyers, attacking competitors that use orange boxes in product logos, and the letters 'DWG' in their product names.  If you can't beat them solely on the merits of your products, then just call in the lawyers. What those competitors are doing to Autodesk is not much different than what Autodesk did to the minicomputer and mainframe CADD vendors of the 80's and 90'.
Quote

Having unpopular intentions, and acting to conceal them through censorship are two different things. I can't find sympathy for those who believe the latter is any better than any criticism they censor, even when there's a little salt and pepper sprinkled on it.

I don't know where to draw the line in the sand. As you pointed out, I don't have the benefit of knowing what your post contained. However, as far as I am concerned, the content of the post is irrelevant. You could have just as well posted something about your child's birthday. The end result is the same. As participants in a forum that is managed by a company (in this case Autodesk), we have no reasonable expectation that our comments will remain on the site or that any specific comments will be allowed.

That might suck balls, but that is how it is. I don't have to agree with what Autodesk did, but I do support their right to do it.

That all being said, I would still be angry if they deleted my posts .. I might even escalate the anger to management .. heck I might even refuse to use their product. If enough folks did, they would soon see the error of their ways.

Does that make any sense?

one of the two posts is debatable, the other is clearly not. Censoring someone because they disagree with a statement about performance and wasted effort, is clearly out of bounds.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2012, 04:17:49 PM by TheMaster »

TheMaster

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Re: Censoring on adndevblog
« Reply #8 on: July 08, 2012, 04:36:51 PM »
Tony, I read your comments and saw nothing that warranted removal. It struck a chord with me because I've been bemused by the Autodesk push for the cloud in favour of other options.

I recall when reading the microsecond latency cost comment that I wondered if AutoDesk had calculated how much each product crash cost users; and how much they had saved at the cost to developers (and users) by not providing timely documentation.
Huez,
TheSwamp posting policy is fairly clear ; so I assume you were being amusing :)

I'm confident that Autodesk did its homework WRT multiple processor support (looking at both the cost to them, and the benefit to customers).  IMO, AutoCAD is artificially overpriced, and far too much of the revenue derived from it is diverted to other products and services. Instead of doing the right thing, and undertaking the major effort required to bring AutoCAD out of the dark ages (WRT to multiple processor support), they are taking an approach that will ultimately lead to unprecedented levels of ill will and customer discontent.

Jeff H

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Re: Censoring on adndevblog
« Reply #9 on: July 08, 2012, 04:59:53 PM »
heck I might even refuse to use their product. If enough folks did, they would soon see the error of their ways.
If enough people did they would just end up throwing enough money to buy out whatever product people were using then screw it up.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2012, 05:07:14 PM by Jeff H »

Keith™

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Re: Censoring on adndevblog
« Reply #10 on: July 08, 2012, 05:59:24 PM »
I was going to post a long response, but decided against it. Instead, I offer this thought.

If Autodesk is so evil and is out to force people to use an inferior product, why the hell do you use it? Why not use Microstation or Briscad ... or any of the other comparable products? Could it be because those products don't meet your expectation?
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TheMaster

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Re: Censoring on adndevblog
« Reply #11 on: July 08, 2012, 06:34:39 PM »
I was going to post a long response, but decided against it. Instead, I offer this thought.

If Autodesk is so evil and is out to force people to use an inferior product, why the hell do you use it? Why not use Microstation or Briscad ... or any of the other comparable products? Could it be because those products don't meet your expectation?

All large corporations are evil.  They are all driven by greed and the need to appease shareholders. Autodesk is not exclusive in that respect. 

I provide custom solutions for anything that can be programmed, not just AutoCAD.

Does that answer your question?

As far as the question of why I or most others use AutoCAD, you apparently don't understand why most people use it.  Most who do, don't need most of what it offers, and other competing products are more than capable of serving their needs. So given that, and the fact that competing products cost less (and in some cases, are free), why do people use AutoCAD rather than some competing solution that would serve their needs?

The reason is quite simple. CADD software purchasing decisions are not based on the qualities of the product in a vacuum.  They are based on the need for and cost of data Interoperability with those whom they must collaborate and share data with.  So, even though XYZCadd may provide a good solution for many, if they must exchange data with others who are using DWG files, and worse, AutoCAD-produced DWG files, then it may not be a good solution, for that reason alone.

So does that answer your other question?
« Last Edit: July 08, 2012, 09:15:37 PM by TheMaster »

Jeff H

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Re: Censoring on adndevblog
« Reply #12 on: July 08, 2012, 06:38:09 PM »
I was going to post a long response, but decided against it. Instead, I offer this thought.

If Autodesk is so evil and is out to force people to use an inferior product, why the hell do you use it? Why not use Microstation or Briscad ... or any of the other comparable products? Could it be because those products don't meet your expectation?
All about what the people paying us require.
 
When 99% of money coming in is from projects that require AutoCAD as all of clients require dwg's and we receive dwg's created with AutoCAD and to make sure we will be able to modify, update, and use it and send dwg's that is AutoCAd supported.
 
If there were more paying clients that required Revit than we would use Revit.
 
If there were a abundance of good paying clients that wanted 3D models made out of popsicle sticks and dried macaroni. I would be covered in Elmer's glue every week.
 
Most government bodies that we have done work for require AutoCAD 2007 file format.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2012, 06:41:49 PM by Jeff H »

Keith™

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Re: Censoring on adndevblog
« Reply #13 on: July 08, 2012, 08:35:02 PM »
All large corporations are evil.

That is all that you needed to say. With that kind of attitude, we can't have a reasonable discussion.

All about what the people paying us require.
 
When 99% of money coming in is from projects that require AutoCAD as all of clients require dwg's and we receive dwg's created with AutoCAD and to make sure we will be able to modify, update, and use it and send dwg's that is AutoCAd supported.
 
If there were more paying clients that required Revit than we would use Revit.
 
If there were a abundance of good paying clients that wanted 3D models made out of popsicle sticks and dried macaroni. I would be covered in Elmer's glue every week.
 
Most government bodies that we have done work for require AutoCAD 2007 file format.

If I felt that strongly about the company that makes my livelyhood possible, I'm afraid I'd have to find another line of work.

I guess it is a good thing that I could not give a crap about Autodesk or Microsoft. Sure, I can lament with the best, but without that evil corporation providing me with software, I wouldn't have worked in the field I loved for 22 years. Whew, what a relief!

But, like you, if my boss required that I write code in notepad, I'd do it .. after all, he IS paying the bill. I don't have to like the tools I am relegated to use, but I sure as hell am not going to piss off the only company that has the tools that I require to do my job.
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Jeff H

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Re: Censoring on adndevblog
« Reply #14 on: July 08, 2012, 09:16:33 PM »
If I felt that strongly about the company that makes my livelyhood possible, I'm afraid I'd have to find another line of work.
If my boss walked in tomorrow morning and said let me know by the end of day but pick any and drafting or CAD software for us to start using and price does not matter, do not worry about clients send, etc....
 
I would choose AutoCAD.
 
It might just be the field, area, clients or whatever but I have never opened or seen MicroStation, a little while back would hear that CORP and clients were going to start requiring Revit and started to learn it but have seen one job where one building(about 1% of the job) was done in Revit.
 
In all of my expirences they got the market locked down.
 
I just wish there was competitor.