Author Topic: Revit Issues  (Read 14039 times)

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cmwade77

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Revit Issues
« on: December 01, 2011, 03:37:07 PM »
First off, I apologize if this is the wrong forum, none really seem to apply here. There was a thread on the vent section that started talking about Revit in the process and it seemed like it could highjack the thread, so I wanted to start a thread that would be more appropriate.

We were discussing the drafting quality of Revit. The first thing is you cannot do proper numbered lists with multiple levels, within Revit, as shown in the attached image.

There are many more issues, but I will start with this one, as it was the last thing mentioned in the other thread.

Matt__W

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Re: Revit Issues
« Reply #1 on: December 01, 2011, 03:39:16 PM »
First off, I apologize if this is the wrong forum, none really seem to apply here.

We were discussing the drafting quality of Revit.
What was wrong with the Revit Forum:)

I'll be back to post more later.
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cmwade77

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Re: Revit Issues
« Reply #2 on: December 01, 2011, 03:43:16 PM »
I didn't know where it was (didn't look too hard, getting ready to go to lunch), sorry about that, moderators, please move it.

Jeff H

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Re: Revit Issues
« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2011, 04:05:40 PM »
Can not have more than one electrical connection to a device........
So you can not create a 2 gang switch.   

cmwade77

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Re: Revit Issues
« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2011, 05:10:40 PM »
That is an issue as well, but I am mostly referring to drafting quality or rather a lack thereof.

Matt__W

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Re: Revit Issues
« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2011, 05:15:34 PM »
Thankfully we haven't had to do a bulleted list like that.  When we do, we do it the difficult way of using spaces/tabs and hard returns.  One tip I've picked up that has helped us when we've needed to do this was to type ZS (Zoom Sheet Size) THEN edit the text.  You know how sometimes when you edit text it decides to rearrange itself?  ZS has drastically reduced (not eliminated) it in most cases.
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cmwade77

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Re: Revit Issues
« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2011, 05:16:52 PM »
Yes, that is one of the major problems we have with Revit. Honestly, creating these lists is very, very common for our cover sheets, along with a few others, so this is something we need.

Matt__W

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Re: Revit Issues
« Reply #7 on: December 02, 2011, 07:47:18 AM »
You could do the schedule trick for creating a block of notes.  It still lacks some of the formatting capability of AutoCAD's MText though.
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Re: Revit Issues
« Reply #8 on: December 02, 2011, 08:28:25 AM »
Listens.

Okay.

Next!
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cmwade77

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Re: Revit Issues
« Reply #9 on: December 02, 2011, 11:10:41 AM »
You could do the schedule trick for creating a block of notes.  It still lacks some of the formatting capability of AutoCAD's MText though.
That is a creative way around it, don't really like the idea, but it does the trick for now.

Now, the next one is that our CAD standards state that whenever possible, all leaders should be drawn at the same angle, line up with each other (either vertically or horizontally) and have the same landing lengths. I have yet to find a way to accomplish this in Revit, you can get somewhat close by eyeballing it, but that is not good enough.

I have attached an example to this email. This is rather simplistic, but it gives you the idea. (Note, this can also be mirrored angles as needed as well).

Matt__W

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Re: Revit Issues
« Reply #10 on: December 02, 2011, 11:29:12 AM »
Now, the next one is that our CAD standards state that whenever possible, all leaders should be drawn at the same angle...
That's getting REALLY anal, isnt' it?

...line up with each other (either vertically or horizontally)...
That's easy enough.  Annotation will "snap" in line with other annotation.

...and have the same landing lengths.
See first comment.


I guess if you really HAD to have the same leader angles (although I don't see how that's possible on all drawings given the amount of notes on some sheets, but okay...) you create one then copy it around.
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cmwade77

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Re: Revit Issues
« Reply #11 on: December 02, 2011, 11:36:39 AM »
Now, the next one is that our CAD standards state that whenever possible, all leaders should be drawn at the same angle...
That's getting REALLY anal, isnt' it?

...line up with each other (either vertically or horizontally)...
That's easy enough.  Annotation will "snap" in line with other annotation.

...and have the same landing lengths.
See first comment.


I guess if you really HAD to have the same leader angles (although I don't see how that's possible on all drawings given the amount of notes on some sheets, but okay...) you create one then copy it around.
It's my boss's standard and honestly we tend to get our drawings through plan check faster and with fewer comments than our competitors, so he has to be doing something right.

No, it doesn't have to be the same on all sheets, just all leaders on that sheet (or as many as possible, obviously there will be exceptions to these rules).

Yes, creating one, then copy it around works, but is time consuming. Honestly, with AutoCAD, we can draw leaders to these standards very quickly., even without using LISP routines, thanks to some of the mLeader tools. I have created LISP routines that make it even faster though, so all in all it takes us less time to draw leaders to these standards in AutoCAD than it does to draw leaders that are not to these standards.

Annotation will snap, most of the time, but not always in our experience, I am not quite sure why it fails when it does.

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Re: Revit Issues
« Reply #12 on: January 05, 2012, 05:37:33 PM »
Now, the next one is that our CAD standards state that whenever possible, all leaders should be drawn at the same angle, line up with each other (either vertically or horizontally) and have the same landing lengths. I have yet to find a way to accomplish this in Revit, you can get somewhat close by eyeballing it, but that is not good enough.

My first thought would be to build an annotation family.
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Re: Revit Issues
« Reply #13 on: January 05, 2012, 06:42:26 PM »
Now, the next one is that our CAD standards state that whenever possible, all leaders should be drawn at the same angle, line up with each other (either vertically or horizontally) and have the same landing lengths. I have yet to find a way to accomplish this in Revit, you can get somewhat close by eyeballing it, but that is not good enough.

My first thought would be to build an annotation family.

Agreed.  It'll take some time, ... probably a lot of time, but if that is what you want...
But also remember, Revit is NOT Autocad and shouldn't be seen as Autocad.  I've seen offices work their fingers to the bone and frazzle their brains trying to make Revit look and work like Autocad.  It's tough dropping an office standard and starting something new, but it's worth it.  Eventually you start seeing the 'new' stuff of Revit as a standard.
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Matt__W

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Re: Revit Issues
« Reply #14 on: January 06, 2012, 08:22:13 AM »
Eventually you start seeing the 'new' stuff of Revit as a standard.
Agreed!!

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StykFacE

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Re: Revit Issues
« Reply #15 on: January 06, 2012, 09:48:13 AM »
Can not have more than one electrical connection to a device........
So you can not create a 2 gang switch.
Actually I think you can now in 2012. Just sayin'.  :kewl:

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Re: Revit Issues
« Reply #16 on: January 06, 2012, 10:07:27 AM »
Agreed.  It'll take some time, ... probably a lot of time, but if that is what you want...
But also remember, Revit is NOT Autocad and shouldn't be seen as Autocad.  I've seen offices work their fingers to the bone and frazzle their brains trying to make Revit look and work like Autocad.  It's tough dropping an office standard and starting something new, but it's worth it.  Eventually you start seeing the 'new' stuff of Revit as a standard.
We had all the same issues trying to push Civil 3D into plan production and is not only limited to convincing the office staff to change.  For most, the bottom line at the end of monthly invoicing will grease things up for most changes from prior standards.  The roadblocks we found were trying to get the new looks through the approval process and to some extent getting contractors to accept a required deviation from the plans they were used to seeing.
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StykFacE

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Re: Revit Issues
« Reply #17 on: January 06, 2012, 10:46:55 AM »
But also remember, Revit is NOT Autocad and shouldn't be seen as Autocad.  I've seen offices work their fingers to the bone and frazzle their brains trying to make Revit look and work like Autocad.  It's tough dropping an office standard and starting something new, but it's worth it.  Eventually you start seeing the 'new' stuff of Revit as a standard.
cmwade77, he speaks the truth. The best advice I've given people is before you double-click that Revit icon, you need to switch off everything you know, love, and hate about AutoCAD. And I cannot iterate the importance of this. You have to really let AutoCAD go. That was the biggest barrier when transitioning into Revit for myself. When I finally did that and accepted Revit for what it is, I began really understanding it and loving it, and excited to use it.

AutoCAD Standards? They no longer matter. Something doesn't print on paper like it does in AutoCAD? Let it go. Seriously, just let it go. Revit is a tool that goes way above and beyond just what's printed or what's displayed and although I will definitely agree there are things that lack in this area of Revit, it will get there, just give it time.

Just some friendly advice is all.

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Re: Revit Issues
« Reply #18 on: January 06, 2012, 01:24:54 PM »
glad my views are mirrored, but cripes... we (not me, the dept.) only got into Autocad just over 12 years ago and there's STILL comments that begin with "But that's not how we did it in Cadvance..."   :ugly:

it makes me cringe thinking about what will be said about the lack of a certain 'look' when doing a revit project soon.
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Krushert

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Re: Revit Issues
« Reply #19 on: January 06, 2012, 03:45:56 PM »
So you guys are saying that we, our bosses, the contractors, city plan reviewers and exspecialy our clients should accept sloppy looking drawing set just beucase it is down in Revit and/or is in BIM format? 

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Re: Revit Issues
« Reply #20 on: January 06, 2012, 03:47:25 PM »
i think it's more along the lines of not being able to use 'traditional' fonts and customized arrowheads and such.
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StykFacE

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Re: Revit Issues
« Reply #21 on: January 06, 2012, 04:15:12 PM »
So you guys are saying that we, our bosses, the contractors, city plan reviewers and exspecialy our clients should accept sloppy looking drawing set just beucase it is down in Revit and/or is in BIM format?
Not at all. I'm just saying the standards in direct relation to AutoCAD will need to be compromised. Revit is to be used for purpose anyways... not to replace common drafting needs. In a sense, you're giving up one tool for another tool, not replacing one tool for another tool. Lots of people have no actual use for Revit and if so then stick with AutoCAD (or whatever your flavor of CAD software is).

Also be reminded that as complete as we all think AutoCAD is, every year the program comes with needed updates and additions. Revit is still in stride and it takes time for products and procedures to mature.

Matt__W

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Re: Revit Issues
« Reply #22 on: January 06, 2012, 04:21:55 PM »
So you guys are saying that we, our bosses, the contractors, city plan reviewers and exspecialy our clients should accept sloppy looking drawing set just beucase it is down in Revit and/or is in BIM format?
Just curious but... what's sloppy about this PDF??

Don't expect to be able to use Revit straight out 'da box.  You WILL have to tweak it.
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mjfarrell

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Re: Revit Issues
« Reply #23 on: January 06, 2012, 04:23:32 PM »
the leaders look pretty poor
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Matt__W

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Re: Revit Issues
« Reply #24 on: January 06, 2012, 04:25:25 PM »
the leaders look pretty poor
They were raised in the ghetto without a parent leader.  They're doing the best they can.  They just need someone to believe in them.
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Re: Revit Issues
« Reply #25 on: January 06, 2012, 04:27:13 PM »
the leaders look pretty poor
They were raised in the ghetto without a parent leader.  They're doing the best they can.  They just need someone to believe in them.
Bwahahaha!!! I busted a gut on that one.

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Re: Revit Issues
« Reply #26 on: January 06, 2012, 04:51:45 PM »
the leaders look pretty poor
They were raised in the ghetto without a parent leader.  They're doing the best they can.  They just need someone to believe in them.
I believe that they could look much better given all the hype and supposed power of Revit.
I won't even get into all the lines over text, and the blob-by line weights on some of the HVAC symbols.
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StykFacE

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Re: Revit Issues
« Reply #27 on: January 06, 2012, 05:55:38 PM »
I believe that they could look much better given all the hype and supposed power of Revit.
So what exactly are you griping about? The look of them, or the functionality? Is the leader somehow not doing what it was intended to do or something?

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Re: Revit Issues
« Reply #28 on: January 06, 2012, 06:43:23 PM »
I believe that they could look much better given all the hype and supposed power of Revit.
So what exactly are you griping about? The look of them, or the functionality? Is the leader somehow not doing what it was intended to do or something?
They are very random both in distance of the landing, distance to the note and placement relative to the notes.
They are more than a little chaotic; which is exactly the users complaint.

Now one might argue, that it is 'only' a leader, and that would be a very thin justification for the user to not have more control over them.  One could even question the accuracy of a BIM model being built within a(n) application wherein one can not control something as simple as that leader element.

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Re: Revit Issues
« Reply #29 on: January 07, 2012, 12:10:00 PM »
I believe that they could look much better given all the hype and supposed power of Revit.
So what exactly are you griping about? The look of them, or the functionality? Is the leader somehow not doing what it was intended to do or something?
They are very random both in distance of the landing, distance to the note and placement relative to the notes.
They are more than a little chaotic; which is exactly the users complaint.

Now one might argue, that it is 'only' a leader, and that would be a very thin justification for the user to not have more control over them.  One could even question the accuracy of a BIM model being built within a(n) application wherein one can not control something as simple as that leader element.
Higgs, I definitely see your point and I understand where you're coming from.

However.... let me iterate the true meaning of using Revit MEP - it goes above and beyond CAD designing. CAD means computer aided drafting, in other words: an extension of the drafting board. CAD keeps the designer in mind, Revit has a much different approach. AutoCAD MEP is a very good tool in designing, but when AutoCAD 1.0 arrived it was nowhere near capable of what it is today.

Point being, if you are really going to harp on the look of a leader then I don't know what to tell you. The Revit platforms are still far from matured but we all know where it's headed and I will admit that I like what I see coming. I like being able to get virtual equipment and material catalogs directly from the manufacturer, with all necessary engineering data attached so running loads or calculating pump selections can finally not be the brutal and manual number crunching task it's always been.

I just feel when you say "given all the hype and supposed power of Revit" you are bashing the platform as a whole, not seeing the ingenuity behind it and surely not seeing what it might could be in ten more years. Hell, maybe that's Autodesk's fault... when they buy something up they seem to know how to screw it up. :) Point is, if you have to look past a few things like leader styles then I say so be it. That's my $0.02 for what it's worth.

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Re: Revit Issues
« Reply #30 on: January 07, 2012, 01:59:37 PM »
The thing is though, when it comes to things like graphic presentation on production drawings I think Revit IS already all it will ever be.  Michael should remember well my being called a "barking dog" on these very boards by then an independent consultant but soon to be Autodesk employee for voicing complaints over identical issues with Civil 3D in 2005 that as far as I know, persist through the current release.  If there were any plans to bring more flexibility with graphic standards, I think some progress would have been made over the course of 6 releases.
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Re: Revit Issues
« Reply #31 on: January 07, 2012, 05:47:19 PM »
The thing is though, when it comes to things like graphic presentation on production drawings I think Revit IS already all it will ever be.
I don't think you could be any farther from the truth to be honest. Maybe I'm blind in my optimism but I tend to never believe any software like Revit or AutoCAD is considered finished.

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Re: Revit Issues
« Reply #32 on: January 07, 2012, 10:35:05 PM »
The thing is though, when it comes to things like graphic presentation on production drawings I think Revit IS already all it will ever be.
I don't think you could be any farther from the truth to be honest. Maybe I'm blind in my optimism but I tend to never believe any software like Revit or AutoCAD is considered finished.
The application may not 'ever' be considered finished.  And they certainly won't get closer any faster as long as we are willing to gloss over and apologize for shortcomings in any aspect of their functionality.
I may bark a little furiously than I used, mostly due to losing my voice, however the issues I barked about still persist.  One might ask why they remain?  A couple of reasons, people who want to ignore the shortcomings, and autodesk does a poor job of addressing these issue, because too many are willing to HOPE that someday in some release that they have already subscribed to, just might address the issues.  The problem with this logic; is that unless a problem is accepted an identified by all as a problem, then there is no rush to fix it.

Take the following example.

Coxswain to Captain, "Sir, we are seeing a little seapage below decks I think the bilge pumps should be able to handle it"



Coxswain to Captain, " Sir, we have hit an iceberg and ripped a giant hole in the hull, we will sink in under 20 minutes."

Which of the above will save those aboard the ship?

Now I know that one is a little extreme, however it just might save the crew even if the ship does sink.
whereas the other may doom them all because the problem is not accepted, and thus remains unresolved.

Now will ones building fall down if the stupid leaders look like they were created by a spastic dyslexic? No.
Howeve should it be accepted as a given simply because one can get a real 3d model of some air handler? I also say NO.  Because we were getting decent models from proactive manufacturers long before anyone knew how to pronounce REVIT.

I'm not bashing the platform as a whole, I just believe things should be called what they are, otherwise they do not get addressed in a proper or timely manner.
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Re: Revit Issues
« Reply #33 on: January 09, 2012, 07:01:46 AM »
That drawing is not a good example of what can be done with the leaders. Although they are at best clunky to work with, they can be made  consistent with a little effort on the drafter's part.
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Re: Revit Issues
« Reply #34 on: January 09, 2012, 09:23:43 AM »
Take the following example.

Coxswain to Captain, "Sir, we are seeing a little seapage below decks I think the bilge pumps should be able to handle it"

Coxswain to Captain, " Sir, we have hit an iceberg and ripped a giant hole in the hull, we will sink in under 20 minutes."

Which of the above will save those aboard the ship?

Now I know that one is a little extreme, however it just might save the crew even if the ship does sink.
whereas the other may doom them all because the problem is not accepted, and thus remains unresolved.
Extreme, yes... but I definitely get your point and I do agree with you. I guess ultimately I will still remain optimistic because throughout history we all must understand things take time to develop. I get frustrated at people I know personally who always seem to have something to say about things, especially AutoCAD or Revit, as if they are are suppose to be all-in-one complete packages without any time or room for improvement.

*shrugs* Just my optimism I guess. :)

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Re: Revit Issues
« Reply #35 on: January 09, 2012, 08:52:20 PM »
I so want to respond detail but have no time.  I will go back to what I said before. It is pride that I put out a good looking set of drawings and the easiest way to do that thru consistency.  These leaders, the freakin level tags that I am dealing with and the other random thing is Column bubble locations when creating a new level.  They behave randomly.   I have a hard time putting aside "taking pride in how my work looks like".  And Higgs sort of hit on the nail on the head.  Annotation has to look just as good as the Geometry.  Just MHO, that is all.   

Good thread too BTW.

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Re: Revit Issues
« Reply #36 on: January 09, 2012, 10:45:15 PM »
I so want to respond detail but have no time.  I will go back to what I said before. It is pride that I put out a good looking set of drawings and the easiest way to do that thru consistency.  These leaders, the freakin level tags that I am dealing with and the other random thing is Column bubble locations when creating a new level.  They behave randomly.   I have a hard time putting aside "taking pride in how my work looks like".  And Higgs sort of hit on the nail on the head.  Annotation has to look just as good as the Geometry.  Just MHO, that is all.   

Good thread too BTW.


Oh, Lordy ... I am going to find common ground with an artichoke type.  Part of me wants to re examine my entire thought process now.
The problem Krush, is that there is no room for this type of craftsmanship in the current engineering budgets.  The only ones calling for more aesthetically pleasing graphic options are a handful of old school purists along with some contractors and reviewing agencies that have not yet accepted the new normal for the designs that cross their desks.  Neither of these groups are pouring cash into Autodesk coffers so as far as they are concerned, there is no problem to address.  I like to call it the quick and dirty devotional to the altar of  GITTERDUN.
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Re: Revit Issues
« Reply #37 on: January 10, 2012, 08:42:01 AM »
...the other random thing is Column bubble locations when creating a new level.  They behave randomly.
PROPAGATE EXTENTS... just sayin'  :)
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Re: Revit Issues
« Reply #38 on: January 10, 2012, 09:49:13 AM »
...the other random thing is Column bubble locations when creating a new level.  They behave randomly.
PROPAGATE EXTENTS... just sayin'  :)
Thank you Master Po.
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Re: Revit Issues
« Reply #39 on: January 10, 2012, 09:51:31 AM »
...the other random thing is Column bubble locations when creating a new level.  They behave randomly.
PROPAGATE EXTENTS... just sayin'  :)
Thank you Master Po Shifu.
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Re: Revit Issues
« Reply #40 on: January 10, 2012, 01:59:10 PM »
You saying Master Po is old school?  Ohhhh He is going to kick your pututty and little furball all over the place!   :-D
« Last Edit: January 10, 2012, 02:13:35 PM by Krushert »
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