Author Topic: future of lisp in acd  (Read 7803 times)

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Amsterdammed

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future of lisp in acd
« on: November 18, 2011, 07:11:28 AM »
Hello there,

i heard here from a developer that Autodesk plan to axe lisp in Acad2014 as they did with VBA in Acad2012.

does anybody know if this is true?

Thanks

Bernd
« Last Edit: November 18, 2011, 08:42:02 AM by CAB »

nivuahc

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Re: future of lisp in acd
« Reply #1 on: November 18, 2011, 08:09:11 AM »
I've heard this exact same rumor with every release since, oh, about the time of AutoCAD 2000i.

Personally I think it would be damned foolish of Autodesk to do so.

BlackBox

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Re: future of lisp in acd
« Reply #2 on: November 18, 2011, 08:51:01 AM »
Well, given that the VBA enabler is still being provided in the AutoCAD 2014 Beta (Dun-uh, dun-uh, dun-uh), and there is no need for a separate Visual LISP enabler (as it is included), I'd say it's a safe bet the rumor is not true.  :wink:

However, unless Autodesk actually improves the AutoLISP & Visual LISP (ActiveX COM) APIs, more and more users will migrate to C#/VB.NET and/or ObjectARX (C++ for AutoCAD) out of necessity... Especially for those of us who use verticals (i.e., Civil 3D, etc.).  :-(
"How we think determines what we do, and what we do determines what we get."

mkweaver

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Re: future of lisp in acd
« Reply #3 on: November 18, 2011, 09:25:14 AM »
Well, given that the VBA enabler is still being provided in the AutoCAD 2014 Beta (Dun-uh, dun-uh, dun-uh), and there is no need for a separate Visual LISP enabler (as it is included), I'd say it's a safe bet the rumor is not true.  :wink:

However, unless Autodesk actually improves the AutoLISP & Visual LISP (ActiveX COM) APIs, more and more users will migrate to C#/VB.NET and/or ObjectARX (C++ for AutoCAD) out of necessity... Especially for those of us who use verticals (i.e., Civil 3D, etc.).  :-(

I agree completely on this.  Lisp will always be there, but fewer and fewer people will use it for serious development.

Amsterdammed

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Re: future of lisp in acd
« Reply #4 on: November 18, 2011, 09:52:26 AM »
Thanks Gentlemen!

BlackBox

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Re: future of lisp in acd
« Reply #5 on: November 18, 2011, 09:59:07 AM »
Well, given that the VBA enabler is still being provided in the AutoCAD 2014 Beta (Dun-uh, dun-uh, dun-uh), and there is no need for a separate Visual LISP enabler (as it is included), I'd say it's a safe bet the rumor is not true.  :wink:

However, unless Autodesk actually improves the AutoLISP & Visual LISP (ActiveX COM) APIs, more and more users will migrate to C#/VB.NET and/or ObjectARX (C++ for AutoCAD) out of necessity... Especially for those of us who use verticals (i.e., Civil 3D, etc.).  :-(

I agree completely on this.  Lisp will always be there, but fewer and fewer people will use it for serious development.

It truly is a shame IMO; one cannot even use vlax-dump-object on some (most?) of the newer AECC* Objects in Civil 3D. Visual LISP is capable, Autodesk just needs to expose the API features.

You may find this to be of interest, about post #17: http://forums.augi.com/showthread.php?t=28037&page=2

Also this: http://alisp-ext.wikidot.com/
"How we think determines what we do, and what we do determines what we get."

alanjt

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Re: future of lisp in acd
« Reply #6 on: November 18, 2011, 10:35:15 AM »
Well, given that the VBA enabler is still being provided in the AutoCAD 2014 Beta (Dun-uh, dun-uh, dun-uh), and there is no need for a separate Visual LISP enabler (as it is included), I'd say it's a safe bet the rumor is not true.  :wink:

However, unless Autodesk actually improves the AutoLISP & Visual LISP (ActiveX COM) APIs, more and more users will migrate to C#/VB.NET and/or ObjectARX (C++ for AutoCAD) out of necessity... Especially for those of us who use verticals (i.e., Civil 3D, etc.).  :-(

I agree completely on this.  Lisp will always be there, but fewer and fewer people will use it for serious development.

It truly is a shame IMO; one cannot even use vlax-dump-object on some (most?) of the newer AECC* Objects in Civil 3D. Visual LISP is capable, Autodesk just needs to expose the API features.

You may find this to be of interest, about post #17: http://forums.augi.com/showthread.php?t=28037&page=2

Also this: http://alisp-ext.wikidot.com/
http://www.theswamp.org/index.php?topic=40106.0
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BlackBox

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Re: future of lisp in acd
« Reply #7 on: November 18, 2011, 10:55:52 AM »
Even simple, small things like (command "._xattach") are subject to Autodesk's supposed enhanced functionality. In 2011/2012 the command is forced into command line version if not immediately preceded by (initdia). I'm just glad it was an easy fix.
"How we think determines what we do, and what we do determines what we get."

alanjt

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Re: future of lisp in acd
« Reply #8 on: November 18, 2011, 10:59:02 AM »
Even simple, small things like (command "._xattach") are subject to Autodesk's supposed enhanced functionality. In 2011/2012 the command is forced into command line version if not immediately preceded by (initdia). I'm just glad it was an easy fix.
Almost all dialog driven commands work like that.
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BlackBox

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Re: future of lisp in acd
« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2011, 11:18:46 AM »
Even simple, small things like (command "._xattach") are subject to Autodesk's supposed enhanced functionality. In 2011/2012 the command is forced into command line version if not immediately preceded by (initdia). I'm just glad it was an easy fix.
Almost all dialog driven commands work like that.

Yeah... now! LoL

As of Land Desktop / Land Enabled Map / Civil 3D 2009 that was not the case. We skipped 2010, and jumped into 2011. Separately (from the rest of the company), I am also using 2012 per FDOT Civil 3D 2012 State Kit Beta.
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BIGAL

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Re: future of lisp in acd
« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2011, 08:56:36 PM »
One of the biggest selling points of acad is that you can simply program it you dont need compilers and a IT degree to write code. Vl was a huge boost to common lisp. yeah .Net is out there but old fashioned lisp is still easy.

Will Autodesk though go down the path like CorelCAD and there macro record writes .Net code much like word and excel writes VBA. I would expect we will get a big warning about no lisp, the world would revolt there is just to much stuff out there. A lisp to xxx language would probbaly be their only way out of this dilemma.
A man who never made a mistake never made anything

Jeff H

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Re: future of lisp in acd
« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2011, 10:14:08 PM »
I think it basically boils down to this.
 
Does it cost them much effort to maintain AutoLISP from release to release?
NO.

Would it cost more money than they would want to spend to update AutoLISP?
YES.

Would it be better to spend resources on a new approach that is better suited to also work wel with PC and MAC?
Not goning to answer

Would that mean that would also have to spend resources to update it and also have to maintain and add new to functionality to the IDE.
YES.
 
I do not think it will go anywhere until they do a big change and it is not worth trying to update.
I do not know maybe if a do re-write to add multi-threaded capability or something, but I would not worry about it.

 
« Last Edit: November 24, 2011, 10:17:09 PM by Jeff H »

LE3

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Re: future of lisp in acd
« Reply #12 on: November 24, 2011, 10:55:22 PM »
From an ex-lisper, and what all said about Rock n' Roll....
Here it is for you Lispers the port of an old song-code - Have fun:

Code: [Select]
AutoLisp 'n VLisp is here to stay,
it will never die
It was meant to be that way,
though I don't know why
I don't care what people say,
AutoLisp 'n VLisp is here to stay

(We don't care what people say, AutoLisp 'n VLisp is here to stay)

AutoLisp 'n VLisp will always be
our ticket to the end
It will go down in history,
just you wait, my friend
AutoLisp 'n VLisp will always be,
it'll go down in history

(AutoLisp 'n VLisp will always be, it'll go down in history)

So come on,
everybody lisp,
everybody lisp,
everybody lisp,
everybody lisp
Everybody lisp

Now everybody AutoLisp 'n VLisp,
everybody AutoLisp 'n VLisp,
everybody AutoLisp 'n VLisp
Everybody AutoLisp 'n VLisp,
everybody AutoLisp 'n VLisp

AutoLisp 'n VLisp will always be
our ticket to the end
It will go down in history,
just you wait, my friend
AutoLisp 'n VLisp will always be,
it'll go down in history
If you don't like AutoLisp 'n VLisp,
think what you've been missin'
But if you like to bop and strawl,
come on down and listen
Let's all start to have a ball,
everybody AutoLisp 'n VLisp

Ah, oh baby, ah, oh baby, ah, oh baby, ah, oh baby, lisp!

Kerry

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Re: future of lisp in acd
« Reply #13 on: November 24, 2011, 11:08:36 PM »
Yes Jeff, Return On Investment is the key ... and Mac is the wildcard.

The last I heard from unnamed sources is that  "There are no plans at this stage for AutoCAD to discard AutoLisp or VisualLisp".

It's a pity that the ActiveX documentation for VisualLisp has never been completed .. The lack of this documentation makes it difficult for new customisers who want to make use of the powerful vla- vlax function library.

Having said that, I don't believe the lack of ActiveX documentation is any indicator of AutoDesk intent regarding continuation of the availability of Lisp ;
It's more a reflection of AutoDesks typical disregard of developers.

Regards.

ps:
In the event that anyone with any clout at AutoDesk comes across this thread ; Seriously, how much would it cost to produce and check ActiveX documentation for VisualLisp
... and how much would that reduce the shareholder payout assuming that there was no increase in revenue as a result of happier customisers expressing their satisfaction to their boss.
Ditto for the .NET API


Cute Luis :)
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dgorsman

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Re: future of lisp in acd
« Reply #14 on: November 25, 2011, 10:26:20 AM »
Having said that, I don't believe the lack of ActiveX documentation is any indicator of AutoDesk intent regarding continuation of the availability of Lisp ;
It's more a reflection of AutoDesks typical disregard of developers.

I'm sure the developers are OK for the most part - they are using dotNET and/or ObjectARX to do their thing so the ActiveX documentation is rendered moot.  Its more the CAD Support personnel doing casual/in-house development work that are affected.
If you are going to fly by the seat of your pants, expect friction burns.

try {GreatPower;}
   catch (notResponsible)
      {NextTime(PlanAhead);}
   finally
      {MasterBasics;}