Author Topic: Subscription...Product or Service?  (Read 7936 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

BlackBox

  • King Gator
  • Posts: 3770
Re: Subscription...Product or Service?
« Reply #15 on: May 12, 2011, 08:00:22 AM »
Does Autodesk charge sales tax on subscription to California customers?

If yes, then Adesk regards subscription as a product.

If no, then Adesk regards subscription as a service.

California law imposes sales tax on products, but not services.

... Did you really just suggest that Cal-i-forn-i-a be the standard bearer for anything good, let alone this discussion!?



 :lmao: LoL
"How we think determines what we do, and what we do determines what we get."

mjfarrell

  • Seagull
  • Posts: 14444
  • Every Student their own Lesson
Re: Subscription...Product or Service?
« Reply #16 on: May 12, 2011, 09:10:48 AM »
Again, It doesn't matter to me how the tax man views this thing.
It's a product, you pay for it, you install it. (product)
If there was nothing ever to install, then it would be a service.
Be your Best


Michael Farrell
http://primeservicesglobal.com/

alanjt

  • Needs a day job
  • Posts: 5352
  • Standby for witty remark...
Re: Subscription...Product or Service?
« Reply #17 on: May 12, 2011, 09:24:47 AM »
Again, It doesn't matter to me how the tax man views this thing.
It's a product, you pay for it, you install it. (product)
If there was nothing ever to install, then it would be a service.
X2
Civil 3D 2019 ~ Windohz 7 64bit
Dropbox

Dinosaur

  • Guest
Re: Subscription...Product or Service?
« Reply #18 on: May 12, 2011, 09:27:30 AM »
It also appears to include additional utilities (at least Civil 3D did the last time I worked with it) which are not available without the prescription subscription.  We weren't on subscription and some of those utilities would have been a great enhancement to the program functionality.  I have to call it a product.

dgorsman

  • Water Moccasin
  • Posts: 2437
Re: Subscription...Product or Service?
« Reply #19 on: May 12, 2011, 01:18:03 PM »
I've never installed anything called or referred to as "Subscription", nor have I purchased a license for such.  Product, yes - AutoCAD, Raster Design, and so on.
If you are going to fly by the seat of your pants, expect friction burns.

try {GreatPower;}
   catch (notResponsible)
      {NextTime(PlanAhead);}
   finally
      {MasterBasics;}

BlackBox

  • King Gator
  • Posts: 3770
Re: Subscription...Product or Service?
« Reply #20 on: May 12, 2011, 01:45:09 PM »
Again, It doesn't matter to me how the tax man views this thing.
It's a product, you pay for it, you install it. (product)
If there was nothing ever to install, then it would be a service.
X2
I've never installed anything called or referred to as "Subscription", nor have I purchased a license for such.  Product, yes - AutoCAD, Raster Design, and so on.

A service is a vehicle by which one consumes a product; the two are not mutually exclusive.

That's why that buried water pipe in our yards is called a 'Water Product', right? No... it's a 'Water Service', yet it conveys a consumable product - water. LoL Another example being the 'Food Product' industry, no, wait... it's called the 'Food Service' industry. As a generalization, restaurants provide service (i.e., the server, atmosphere, culinary skill, etc.), grocery stores sell products. Seen any commercials for web-based 'Dating Products'... no, they claim to offer a 'Dating Service ' (i.e., Match, eHarmony, etc.).

(^^ That last one is so asking for jokes, LoL ^^)

This is analogous to an Autodesk reseller, some merely sell products (what are they thinking?), where others offer service (i.e., training, on-site setup, etc.). I cannot think of any subscriptions that do not provide both service and a form of product.
"How we think determines what we do, and what we do determines what we get."

alanjt

  • Needs a day job
  • Posts: 5352
  • Standby for witty remark...
Re: Subscription...Product or Service?
« Reply #21 on: May 12, 2011, 01:50:44 PM »
Is disservice an option?
Civil 3D 2019 ~ Windohz 7 64bit
Dropbox

mjfarrell

  • Seagull
  • Posts: 14444
  • Every Student their own Lesson
Re: Subscription...Product or Service?
« Reply #22 on: May 12, 2011, 01:58:04 PM »
Again, It doesn't matter to me how the tax man views this thing.
It's a product, you pay for it, you install it. (product)
If there was nothing ever to install, then it would be a service.
X2
I've never installed anything called or referred to as "Subscription", nor have I purchased a license for such.  Product, yes - AutoCAD, Raster Design, and so on.

A service is a vehicle by which one consumes a product; the two are not mutually exclusive.

That's why that buried water pipe in our yards is called a 'Water Product', right? No... it's a 'Water Service', yet it conveys a consumable product - water. LoL Another example being the 'Food Product' industry, no, wait... it's called the 'Food Service' industry. As a generalization, restaurants provide service (i.e., the server, atmosphere, culinary skill, etc.), grocery stores sell products. Seen any commercials for web-based 'Dating Products'... no, they claim to offer a 'Dating Service ' (i.e., Match, eHarmony, etc.).

(^^ That last one is so asking for jokes, LoL ^^)

This is analogous to an Autodesk reseller, some merely sell products (what are they thinking?), where others offer service (i.e., training, on-site setup, etc.). I cannot think of any subscriptions that do not provide both service and a form of product.

Only by YOUR definition, however service is defined as follows:
 from here:  http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/service
–noun
1. an act of helpful activity; help; aid: to do someone a service.
2. the supplying or supplier of utilities or commodities, as water, electricity, or gas, required or demanded by the public.
3. the providing or a provider of accommodation and activities required by the public, as maintenance, repair, etc.: The manufacturer guarantees service and parts.
EXPAND
4. the organized system of apparatus, appliances, employees, etc., for supplying some accommodation required by the public: a television repair service.
5. the supplying or a supplier of public communication and transportation: telephone service; bus service.
6. the performance of duties or the duties performed as or by a waiter or servant; occupation or employment as a waiter or servant.
7. employment in any duties or work for a person, organization, government, etc.
8. a department of public employment, an administrative division of a government, or the body of public servants in it: the diplomatic service.
9. the duty or work of public servants.
10. the serving of a sovereign, state, or government in some official capacity.
11. Military .
a. the armed forces: in the service.
b. a branch of the armed forces, as the army or navy: Which service were you in during the war?
12. Ordnance . the actions required in loading and firing a cannon: service of the piece.
13. Often, services.  the performance of any duties or work for another; helpful or professional activity: medical services.
14. something made or done by a commercial organization for the public benefit and without regard to direct profit: Certain books are published at a loss as a public service.
15. Also called divine service. public religious worship according to prescribed form and order.
16. a ritual or form prescribed for public worship or for some particular occasion: the marriage service.
17. the serving of god by obedience, piety, etc.: voluntary service.
18. a musical setting of the sung portions of a liturgy.
19. a set of dishes, utensils, etc., for general table use or for particular use: a tea service; service for eight.
20. answering service.
21. Law . the serving of a process or writ upon a person.
22. Nautical . tarred spun yarn or other small stuff for covering the exterior of a rope.
23. (in tennis, badminton, handball, etc.)
a. the act or manner of putting the ball or shuttlecock into play; serve.
b. the ball or shuttlecock as put into play.
24. the mating of a female animal with the male.

There are others; and it is very interesting that none of those definitions of a SERVICE seems to align with yours.

This thing is a product; the purchase of which leads to one being #24'ed by autodesk.
Be your Best


Michael Farrell
http://primeservicesglobal.com/

mjfarrell

  • Seagull
  • Posts: 14444
  • Every Student their own Lesson
Re: Subscription...Product or Service?
« Reply #23 on: May 12, 2011, 01:59:07 PM »
Is disservice an option?
it should be...
Be your Best


Michael Farrell
http://primeservicesglobal.com/

BlackBox

  • King Gator
  • Posts: 3770
Re: Subscription...Product or Service?
« Reply #24 on: May 12, 2011, 03:48:58 PM »
Again, It doesn't matter to me how the tax man views this thing.
It's a product, you pay for it, you install it. (product)
If there was nothing ever to install, then it would be a service.
X2
I've never installed anything called or referred to as "Subscription", nor have I purchased a license for such.  Product, yes - AutoCAD, Raster Design, and so on.

A service is a vehicle by which one consumes a product; the two are not mutually exclusive.

That's why that buried water pipe in our yards is called a 'Water Product', right? No... it's a 'Water Service', yet it conveys a consumable product - water. LoL Another example being the 'Food Product' industry, no, wait... it's called the 'Food Service' industry. As a generalization, restaurants provide service (i.e., the server, atmosphere, culinary skill, etc.), grocery stores sell products. Seen any commercials for web-based 'Dating Products'... no, they claim to offer a 'Dating Service ' (i.e., Match, eHarmony, etc.).

(^^ That last one is so asking for jokes, LoL ^^)

This is analogous to an Autodesk reseller, some merely sell products (what are they thinking?), where others offer service (i.e., training, on-site setup, etc.). I cannot think of any subscriptions that do not provide both service and a form of product.

Only by YOUR definition, however service is defined as follows:
 from here:  http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/service
...
There are others; and it is very interesting that none of those definitions of a SERVICE seems to align with yours.

This thing is a product; the purchase of which leads to one being #24'ed by autodesk.

Okey-dokey, Bobby Boucher "But my, my, my [Dictionary] says..."



Autodesk Subscription:

Quote from: Autodesk, Subscription Overview
Autodesk Subscription allows customers to extend the value of their software investment with access to the latest releases and web services that can help improve design workflows. Additional benefits that enhance productivity include expedited technical support and flexible licensing options.

For an annual fee, Autodesk Subscription customers get convenient access to the following benefits*:


Immediate access to the latest technologies
Gain access to the latest software releases and stay current with new product enhancements.

Expedited technical support
Get priority responses within Autodesk forums and faster access to technical support resources.

Improved design workflows
Leverage web services that use the power of cloud computing for design analysis and optimization.

Flexible licensing rights
Allocate previous version and current software releases across multiple territories or for home use. 

Learn More about Subscription
To learn more about Autodesk Subscription, contact an Autodesk Authorized Reseller or Autodesk Sales Representative.

Quote from: Autodesk, Subscription Support Levels
Autodesk Subscription allows customers to extend the value of their software investment with access to the latest releases and web services that can help improve design workflows. Additional benefits that enhance productivity include expedited technical support and flexible licensing options*.

Autodesk Subscription
Software maintenance and support program that includes:

Access to software upgrades as soon as they are released
Flexible licensing rights to current and previous versions of software
Exclusive Subscription Advantage Packs, web services, and additional product enhancements
Online tracking and management of support cases
Lower total cost of ownership

Autodesk Gold Subscription
All standard Autodesk Subscription benefits plus the following:

Phone support for up to four authorized callers
More aggressive initial response target
Application Programming Interface (API) support

Autodesk Platinum Subscription
All Autodesk Gold Subscription benefits plus the following:

Phone support for an unlimited number of authorized callers
Dedicated Support Account Manager (SAM)
Technical and operational assessments including:  Project Heath Checks and Quarterly Business Support Plans
Aggressive response, case status reporting and resolution targets
Waiver of Autodesk Developer Network (ADN) fee

Interesting, and I'm sure it's coincidental, that Autodesk (the provider), describes Subscription using only language that provides service for their product(s). In this context (and not in all circumstances), this subscription is a vehicle by which to obtain both services and a product.
"How we think determines what we do, and what we do determines what we get."

mjfarrell

  • Seagull
  • Posts: 14444
  • Every Student their own Lesson
Re: Subscription...Product or Service?
« Reply #25 on: May 12, 2011, 03:57:51 PM »
I can clearly see that they have sold you some product.
Shame I've already fertilized my lawn and garden for the year.

It doesn't matter how they package it, its product.
That is M A R K E T I N G literature, anything said in the act of marketing something does not qualify as truth.
Be your Best


Michael Farrell
http://primeservicesglobal.com/

BlackBox

  • King Gator
  • Posts: 3770
Re: Subscription...Product or Service?
« Reply #26 on: May 12, 2011, 04:40:53 PM »
I can clearly see that they have sold you some product.
Shame I've already fertilized my lawn and garden for the year.

Look at the bright side, now you'll have plenty of time to get that new eye prescription...

A service is a vehicle by which one consumes a product; the two are not mutually exclusive.


Only by YOUR definition, however service is defined as follows:
 from here:  http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/service
–noun
1. an act of helpful activity; help; aid: to do someone a service.
2. the supplying or supplier of utilities or commodities, as water, electricity, or gas, required or demanded by the public.
...

There are others; and it is very interesting that none of those definitions of a SERVICE seems to align with yours.

This thing is a product; the purchase of which leads to one being #24'ed by autodesk.

Yep... very interesting.  :kewl:

It doesn't matter how they package it, its product.
That is M A R K E T I N G literature, anything said in the act of marketing something does not qualify as truth.

That's a non sequitur, and frankly a meaningless statement. Equally meaningful is that because it was 'said in the act of marketing something [it does] qualify as truth' - albeit presuming that person to be honest.

I'm not here to convince you, or anyone else (not that I could in any event), and am fully prepared to 'agree to disagree.'

May I ask... Do you consider Prime Services to offer your clients a service, a product, or both?

Yes, I'm making a general comparison, one that is certainly not 100% analogous, but I feel that the two relate to some degree. You may not share my opinion.

"How we think determines what we do, and what we do determines what we get."

David Hall

  • Automatic Duh Generator
  • King Gator
  • Posts: 4075
Re: Subscription...Product or Service?
« Reply #27 on: May 12, 2011, 05:28:18 PM »
OK, i quit reading halfway through this thread and skipped to the bottom.  The way I look at it, I have to use Autocad, I have to upgrade it at least every three years so as to not lose the investment.  So we buy on subscription and buy it 3 years at a time, for which Autodesk gives us a discount for multiyear purchase.  I forget the percentage, but it is worth it.
Everyone has a photographic memory, Some just don't have film.
They say money can't buy happiness, but it can buy Bacon and that's a close second.
Sometimes the question is more important than the answer. (Thanks Kerry for reminding me)

mjfarrell

  • Seagull
  • Posts: 14444
  • Every Student their own Lesson
Re: Subscription...Product or Service?
« Reply #28 on: May 12, 2011, 05:37:20 PM »
I offer training services through Prime Services.
I tried (with limited success) to sell the same class as a product; as downloadable videos.
As I am dealing in knowledge there is no tangible product.
Be your Best


Michael Farrell
http://primeservicesglobal.com/

Nibster

  • Guest
Re: Subscription...Product or Service?
« Reply #29 on: May 12, 2011, 05:40:25 PM »
I offer training services through Prime Services.
I tried (with limited success) to sell the same class as a product; as downloadable videos.
As I am dealing in knowledge there is no tangible product.
Maybe if you offered desk rentals to be included with your classes.... wait, is that a product or a service? 



carp, here we go again...    :realmad: