Author Topic: Subscription...Product or Service?  (Read 7931 times)

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Bob Wahr

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Subscription...Product or Service?
« on: May 06, 2011, 07:04:40 PM »
and why?

Jeff H

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Re: Subscription...Product or Service?
« Reply #1 on: May 06, 2011, 07:28:44 PM »
Product.

We only have 2 licences but if we had more my feelings might change.

Part of me thinks it is easy to see that Autodesk is pushing subscription so just go ahead and add $3.47 an hour to overhead for each drafter(Using 2080 hours a year and $600 for subscription).

Dinosaur

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Re: Subscription...Product or Service?
« Reply #2 on: May 06, 2011, 09:30:55 PM »
I was going to shamelessly abuse my awesome Moderator powers and add " ABOMINATION SPAWNED BY EVIL INCARNATE " to your choices just for my old instructor, but I decided not to risk skewing your poll should it gain traction with others.

sinc

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Re: Subscription...Product or Service?
« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2011, 12:48:42 PM »
Service.  Because if it's a software product, you have to depreciate it over three years, and that makes no sense for ongoing maintenance costs that have to be paid every year.

Bob Wahr

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Re: Subscription...Product or Service?
« Reply #4 on: May 10, 2011, 06:17:19 PM »
but I decided not to risk skewing your poll should it gain traction with others.
Doesn't look like this poll gaining traction is going to be an issue.  Disappointing but not unexpected.  I see it as being a service for pretty much the same reasons that Sinc listed.  Was curious how others felt on it.  It's time to renew some subscription.  Last year, my reseller, who besides "reminding" me about subscription renewals gives me no benefit at all, tried throwing this big guilt trip on me for not supporting local businesses because I renewed online.  I can see his point, to an extent.  I wouldn't mind them getting a chunk o' cash for the renewal, but it's about a $70 difference per seat in sales tax.  In my mind, it's a service and shouldn't have tax charged anyway.  Looks like 2/3 of the not me votes disagree with me.

mjfarrell

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Re: Subscription...Product or Service?
« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2011, 06:19:42 PM »
I was going to shamelessly abuse my awesome Moderator powers and add " ABOMINATION SPAWNED BY EVIL INCARNATE " to your choices just for my old instructor, but I decided not to risk skewing your poll should it gain traction with others.
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mjfarrell

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Re: Subscription...Product or Service?
« Reply #6 on: May 10, 2011, 06:29:00 PM »
I don't care how the taxman breaks it down.

It's a product that autodesk tries to poison your minds into believing it's a service.
It is not a service to be charged for a product; that at best guarantees you might see one or two 'extensions' for your particular product prior to the next version being spawned. the subscription is a product that autodesk uses various forms of coercion and price tactics tobully convince you that having this subscription product is a good thing.

The absolute only person(s) that the subscription product is good for is the corporate spawn of autodesk, inc.

Here's my definition of a service:
After one has a training session from me; I give you all the support can need at no charge.
That is a service.

Autodesk charges for this thing,it involves your downloading and installing, therefore it is product.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2011, 06:38:36 PM by Higgs Boson's Mate »
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Birdy

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Re: Subscription...Product or Service?
« Reply #7 on: May 10, 2011, 06:46:52 PM »
I refuse to answer until I see conclusive incontrovertible proof that the service does in fact exist, or that the product is alive and well.
 :evil:
Said proof must contain at least 5 impartial
sources that meet my as yet undisclosed
criteria which is certainly subject to change
as soon as said sources are identified.

Bob Wahr

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Re: Subscription...Product or Service?
« Reply #8 on: May 10, 2011, 06:50:24 PM »
I refuse to answer until I see conclusive incontrovertible proof that the service does in fact exist, or that the product is alive and well.
 :evil:
Said proof must contain at least 5 impartial
sources that meet my as yet undisclosed
criteria which is certainly subject to change
as soon as said sources are identified.

You might want to go back and read again, trying for comprehension this time.  My criteria never changed and in fact while he was still going for the "not my job to back up my words" approach, I refuted one of the examples that he ended up googling for.

Birdy

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Re: Subscription...Product or Service?
« Reply #9 on: May 10, 2011, 06:52:18 PM »
Sorry Bob.
That wasn't directed at you. My apologies if you felt it was.

Bob Wahr

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Re: Subscription...Product or Service?
« Reply #10 on: May 10, 2011, 06:57:42 PM »
No problem.  Have trouble seeing how it was directed at anyone else though.  Wasn't offended, figured you were just giving me crap.  I'm cool with that.

dgorsman

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Re: Subscription...Product or Service?
« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2011, 11:19:34 AM »
Service, as in "they provide assistance when I need it".  They can't always solve the problem but they can at least narrow it down and answer questions.  Also service, as in "they provide the installation downloads".  I don't see them providing product, as in "they create software to work with".  That would be AutoDesk proper, through the reseller.
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Krushert

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Re: Subscription...Product or Service?
« Reply #12 on: May 11, 2011, 08:55:29 PM »
No problem.  Have trouble seeing how it was directed at anyone else though.  Wasn't offended, figured you were just giving me crap.  I'm cool with that.

Obvious that you are really cool with crap and so are we all; since we sign on to this subscription thing. 
:evil: :-D

I say both.  It is a product and Service.  Depends on my mood with no real substance to explain why.
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BlackBox

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Re: Subscription...Product or Service?
« Reply #13 on: May 11, 2011, 10:28:01 PM »
I work for a company with 10,000+ employees, where I *believe* 60% are CAD users.

No matter the number of licenses obtained a 'Subscription' is a service... said service provides access to a product (eg., Software, Support, etc.).

eg., Both personally, and corporately, water and electricity services are utilized... which result in a product.
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hermanm

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Re: Subscription...Product or Service?
« Reply #14 on: May 12, 2011, 12:59:20 AM »
Does Autodesk charge sales tax on subscription to California customers?

If yes, then Adesk regards subscription as a product.

If no, then Adesk regards subscription as a service.

California law imposes sales tax on products, but not services.

@ Sinc:

a) small tools can be expensed

b) since software licenses are generally non-transferrable, it makes no sense to me to regard them as capital goods, which must be depreciated...

but then, who said tax law has to make sense?

BlackBox

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Re: Subscription...Product or Service?
« Reply #15 on: May 12, 2011, 08:00:22 AM »
Does Autodesk charge sales tax on subscription to California customers?

If yes, then Adesk regards subscription as a product.

If no, then Adesk regards subscription as a service.

California law imposes sales tax on products, but not services.

... Did you really just suggest that Cal-i-forn-i-a be the standard bearer for anything good, let alone this discussion!?



 :lmao: LoL
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mjfarrell

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Re: Subscription...Product or Service?
« Reply #16 on: May 12, 2011, 09:10:48 AM »
Again, It doesn't matter to me how the tax man views this thing.
It's a product, you pay for it, you install it. (product)
If there was nothing ever to install, then it would be a service.
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alanjt

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Re: Subscription...Product or Service?
« Reply #17 on: May 12, 2011, 09:24:47 AM »
Again, It doesn't matter to me how the tax man views this thing.
It's a product, you pay for it, you install it. (product)
If there was nothing ever to install, then it would be a service.
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Dinosaur

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Re: Subscription...Product or Service?
« Reply #18 on: May 12, 2011, 09:27:30 AM »
It also appears to include additional utilities (at least Civil 3D did the last time I worked with it) which are not available without the prescription subscription.  We weren't on subscription and some of those utilities would have been a great enhancement to the program functionality.  I have to call it a product.

dgorsman

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Re: Subscription...Product or Service?
« Reply #19 on: May 12, 2011, 01:18:03 PM »
I've never installed anything called or referred to as "Subscription", nor have I purchased a license for such.  Product, yes - AutoCAD, Raster Design, and so on.
If you are going to fly by the seat of your pants, expect friction burns.

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BlackBox

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Re: Subscription...Product or Service?
« Reply #20 on: May 12, 2011, 01:45:09 PM »
Again, It doesn't matter to me how the tax man views this thing.
It's a product, you pay for it, you install it. (product)
If there was nothing ever to install, then it would be a service.
X2
I've never installed anything called or referred to as "Subscription", nor have I purchased a license for such.  Product, yes - AutoCAD, Raster Design, and so on.

A service is a vehicle by which one consumes a product; the two are not mutually exclusive.

That's why that buried water pipe in our yards is called a 'Water Product', right? No... it's a 'Water Service', yet it conveys a consumable product - water. LoL Another example being the 'Food Product' industry, no, wait... it's called the 'Food Service' industry. As a generalization, restaurants provide service (i.e., the server, atmosphere, culinary skill, etc.), grocery stores sell products. Seen any commercials for web-based 'Dating Products'... no, they claim to offer a 'Dating Service ' (i.e., Match, eHarmony, etc.).

(^^ That last one is so asking for jokes, LoL ^^)

This is analogous to an Autodesk reseller, some merely sell products (what are they thinking?), where others offer service (i.e., training, on-site setup, etc.). I cannot think of any subscriptions that do not provide both service and a form of product.
"How we think determines what we do, and what we do determines what we get."

alanjt

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Re: Subscription...Product or Service?
« Reply #21 on: May 12, 2011, 01:50:44 PM »
Is disservice an option?
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mjfarrell

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Re: Subscription...Product or Service?
« Reply #22 on: May 12, 2011, 01:58:04 PM »
Again, It doesn't matter to me how the tax man views this thing.
It's a product, you pay for it, you install it. (product)
If there was nothing ever to install, then it would be a service.
X2
I've never installed anything called or referred to as "Subscription", nor have I purchased a license for such.  Product, yes - AutoCAD, Raster Design, and so on.

A service is a vehicle by which one consumes a product; the two are not mutually exclusive.

That's why that buried water pipe in our yards is called a 'Water Product', right? No... it's a 'Water Service', yet it conveys a consumable product - water. LoL Another example being the 'Food Product' industry, no, wait... it's called the 'Food Service' industry. As a generalization, restaurants provide service (i.e., the server, atmosphere, culinary skill, etc.), grocery stores sell products. Seen any commercials for web-based 'Dating Products'... no, they claim to offer a 'Dating Service ' (i.e., Match, eHarmony, etc.).

(^^ That last one is so asking for jokes, LoL ^^)

This is analogous to an Autodesk reseller, some merely sell products (what are they thinking?), where others offer service (i.e., training, on-site setup, etc.). I cannot think of any subscriptions that do not provide both service and a form of product.

Only by YOUR definition, however service is defined as follows:
 from here:  http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/service
–noun
1. an act of helpful activity; help; aid: to do someone a service.
2. the supplying or supplier of utilities or commodities, as water, electricity, or gas, required or demanded by the public.
3. the providing or a provider of accommodation and activities required by the public, as maintenance, repair, etc.: The manufacturer guarantees service and parts.
EXPAND
4. the organized system of apparatus, appliances, employees, etc., for supplying some accommodation required by the public: a television repair service.
5. the supplying or a supplier of public communication and transportation: telephone service; bus service.
6. the performance of duties or the duties performed as or by a waiter or servant; occupation or employment as a waiter or servant.
7. employment in any duties or work for a person, organization, government, etc.
8. a department of public employment, an administrative division of a government, or the body of public servants in it: the diplomatic service.
9. the duty or work of public servants.
10. the serving of a sovereign, state, or government in some official capacity.
11. Military .
a. the armed forces: in the service.
b. a branch of the armed forces, as the army or navy: Which service were you in during the war?
12. Ordnance . the actions required in loading and firing a cannon: service of the piece.
13. Often, services.  the performance of any duties or work for another; helpful or professional activity: medical services.
14. something made or done by a commercial organization for the public benefit and without regard to direct profit: Certain books are published at a loss as a public service.
15. Also called divine service. public religious worship according to prescribed form and order.
16. a ritual or form prescribed for public worship or for some particular occasion: the marriage service.
17. the serving of god by obedience, piety, etc.: voluntary service.
18. a musical setting of the sung portions of a liturgy.
19. a set of dishes, utensils, etc., for general table use or for particular use: a tea service; service for eight.
20. answering service.
21. Law . the serving of a process or writ upon a person.
22. Nautical . tarred spun yarn or other small stuff for covering the exterior of a rope.
23. (in tennis, badminton, handball, etc.)
a. the act or manner of putting the ball or shuttlecock into play; serve.
b. the ball or shuttlecock as put into play.
24. the mating of a female animal with the male.

There are others; and it is very interesting that none of those definitions of a SERVICE seems to align with yours.

This thing is a product; the purchase of which leads to one being #24'ed by autodesk.
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mjfarrell

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Re: Subscription...Product or Service?
« Reply #23 on: May 12, 2011, 01:59:07 PM »
Is disservice an option?
it should be...
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Michael Farrell
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BlackBox

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Re: Subscription...Product or Service?
« Reply #24 on: May 12, 2011, 03:48:58 PM »
Again, It doesn't matter to me how the tax man views this thing.
It's a product, you pay for it, you install it. (product)
If there was nothing ever to install, then it would be a service.
X2
I've never installed anything called or referred to as "Subscription", nor have I purchased a license for such.  Product, yes - AutoCAD, Raster Design, and so on.

A service is a vehicle by which one consumes a product; the two are not mutually exclusive.

That's why that buried water pipe in our yards is called a 'Water Product', right? No... it's a 'Water Service', yet it conveys a consumable product - water. LoL Another example being the 'Food Product' industry, no, wait... it's called the 'Food Service' industry. As a generalization, restaurants provide service (i.e., the server, atmosphere, culinary skill, etc.), grocery stores sell products. Seen any commercials for web-based 'Dating Products'... no, they claim to offer a 'Dating Service ' (i.e., Match, eHarmony, etc.).

(^^ That last one is so asking for jokes, LoL ^^)

This is analogous to an Autodesk reseller, some merely sell products (what are they thinking?), where others offer service (i.e., training, on-site setup, etc.). I cannot think of any subscriptions that do not provide both service and a form of product.

Only by YOUR definition, however service is defined as follows:
 from here:  http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/service
...
There are others; and it is very interesting that none of those definitions of a SERVICE seems to align with yours.

This thing is a product; the purchase of which leads to one being #24'ed by autodesk.

Okey-dokey, Bobby Boucher "But my, my, my [Dictionary] says..."



Autodesk Subscription:

Quote from: Autodesk, Subscription Overview
Autodesk Subscription allows customers to extend the value of their software investment with access to the latest releases and web services that can help improve design workflows. Additional benefits that enhance productivity include expedited technical support and flexible licensing options.

For an annual fee, Autodesk Subscription customers get convenient access to the following benefits*:


Immediate access to the latest technologies
Gain access to the latest software releases and stay current with new product enhancements.

Expedited technical support
Get priority responses within Autodesk forums and faster access to technical support resources.

Improved design workflows
Leverage web services that use the power of cloud computing for design analysis and optimization.

Flexible licensing rights
Allocate previous version and current software releases across multiple territories or for home use. 

Learn More about Subscription
To learn more about Autodesk Subscription, contact an Autodesk Authorized Reseller or Autodesk Sales Representative.

Quote from: Autodesk, Subscription Support Levels
Autodesk Subscription allows customers to extend the value of their software investment with access to the latest releases and web services that can help improve design workflows. Additional benefits that enhance productivity include expedited technical support and flexible licensing options*.

Autodesk Subscription
Software maintenance and support program that includes:

Access to software upgrades as soon as they are released
Flexible licensing rights to current and previous versions of software
Exclusive Subscription Advantage Packs, web services, and additional product enhancements
Online tracking and management of support cases
Lower total cost of ownership

Autodesk Gold Subscription
All standard Autodesk Subscription benefits plus the following:

Phone support for up to four authorized callers
More aggressive initial response target
Application Programming Interface (API) support

Autodesk Platinum Subscription
All Autodesk Gold Subscription benefits plus the following:

Phone support for an unlimited number of authorized callers
Dedicated Support Account Manager (SAM)
Technical and operational assessments including:  Project Heath Checks and Quarterly Business Support Plans
Aggressive response, case status reporting and resolution targets
Waiver of Autodesk Developer Network (ADN) fee

Interesting, and I'm sure it's coincidental, that Autodesk (the provider), describes Subscription using only language that provides service for their product(s). In this context (and not in all circumstances), this subscription is a vehicle by which to obtain both services and a product.
"How we think determines what we do, and what we do determines what we get."

mjfarrell

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Re: Subscription...Product or Service?
« Reply #25 on: May 12, 2011, 03:57:51 PM »
I can clearly see that they have sold you some product.
Shame I've already fertilized my lawn and garden for the year.

It doesn't matter how they package it, its product.
That is M A R K E T I N G literature, anything said in the act of marketing something does not qualify as truth.
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Michael Farrell
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BlackBox

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Re: Subscription...Product or Service?
« Reply #26 on: May 12, 2011, 04:40:53 PM »
I can clearly see that they have sold you some product.
Shame I've already fertilized my lawn and garden for the year.

Look at the bright side, now you'll have plenty of time to get that new eye prescription...

A service is a vehicle by which one consumes a product; the two are not mutually exclusive.


Only by YOUR definition, however service is defined as follows:
 from here:  http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/service
–noun
1. an act of helpful activity; help; aid: to do someone a service.
2. the supplying or supplier of utilities or commodities, as water, electricity, or gas, required or demanded by the public.
...

There are others; and it is very interesting that none of those definitions of a SERVICE seems to align with yours.

This thing is a product; the purchase of which leads to one being #24'ed by autodesk.

Yep... very interesting.  :kewl:

It doesn't matter how they package it, its product.
That is M A R K E T I N G literature, anything said in the act of marketing something does not qualify as truth.

That's a non sequitur, and frankly a meaningless statement. Equally meaningful is that because it was 'said in the act of marketing something [it does] qualify as truth' - albeit presuming that person to be honest.

I'm not here to convince you, or anyone else (not that I could in any event), and am fully prepared to 'agree to disagree.'

May I ask... Do you consider Prime Services to offer your clients a service, a product, or both?

Yes, I'm making a general comparison, one that is certainly not 100% analogous, but I feel that the two relate to some degree. You may not share my opinion.

"How we think determines what we do, and what we do determines what we get."

David Hall

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Re: Subscription...Product or Service?
« Reply #27 on: May 12, 2011, 05:28:18 PM »
OK, i quit reading halfway through this thread and skipped to the bottom.  The way I look at it, I have to use Autocad, I have to upgrade it at least every three years so as to not lose the investment.  So we buy on subscription and buy it 3 years at a time, for which Autodesk gives us a discount for multiyear purchase.  I forget the percentage, but it is worth it.
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mjfarrell

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Re: Subscription...Product or Service?
« Reply #28 on: May 12, 2011, 05:37:20 PM »
I offer training services through Prime Services.
I tried (with limited success) to sell the same class as a product; as downloadable videos.
As I am dealing in knowledge there is no tangible product.
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Michael Farrell
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Nibster

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Re: Subscription...Product or Service?
« Reply #29 on: May 12, 2011, 05:40:25 PM »
I offer training services through Prime Services.
I tried (with limited success) to sell the same class as a product; as downloadable videos.
As I am dealing in knowledge there is no tangible product.
Maybe if you offered desk rentals to be included with your classes.... wait, is that a product or a service? 



carp, here we go again...    :realmad:

mjfarrell

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Re: Subscription...Product or Service?
« Reply #30 on: May 12, 2011, 05:43:25 PM »
I offer training services through Prime Services.
I tried (with limited success) to sell the same class as a product; as downloadable videos.
As I am dealing in knowledge there is no tangible product.
Maybe if you offered desk rentals to be included with your classes.... wait, is that a product or a service? 



carp, here we go again...    :realmad:
IF they got to keep the desk...PRODUCT
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Michael Farrell
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Nibster

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Re: Subscription...Product or Service?
« Reply #31 on: May 12, 2011, 05:45:29 PM »
I offer training services through Prime Services.
I tried (with limited success) to sell the same class as a product; as downloadable videos.
As I am dealing in knowledge there is no tangible product.
Maybe if you offered desk rentals to be included with your classes.... wait, is that a product or a service?  



carp, here we go again...    :realmad:
IF they got to keep the desk...PRODUCT
:wink:

BlackBox

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Re: Subscription...Product or Service?
« Reply #32 on: May 12, 2011, 06:15:34 PM »
I offer training services through Prime Services.
I tried (with limited success) to sell the same class as a product; as downloadable videos.
As I am dealing in knowledge there is no tangible product.

That was my only point; that a consumer may subscribe to either a product, a service, or both... none of which are mutually exclusive.

I appreciate your answering my question, and thank you for the discussion.

Cheers! :beer:

"How we think determines what we do, and what we do determines what we get."

mjfarrell

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Re: Subscription...Product or Service?
« Reply #33 on: May 12, 2011, 06:19:21 PM »
And just because they (or anyone else) call it a service doesn't make it one.
My guess is those that have bought into it call it a service because they have bought into the logic, and
to do otherwise would prove slightly embarrassing.


Cheers!  2xBeer!
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Michael Farrell
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BlackBox

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Re: Subscription...Product or Service?
« Reply #34 on: May 12, 2011, 06:25:48 PM »
And just because they (or anyone else) call it a service doesn't make it one.
My guess is those that have bought into it call it a service because they have bought into the logic, and
to do otherwise would prove slightly embarrassing.


Cheers!  2xBeer!

Perhaps, and this is purely speculation on my part, many identify subscription as the component they consume most...?

Two examples that come to mind:

A new start-up that constantly contacts support for technical issues (service?)

vs.

A company that has thousands of seats, and an established standard, only interested in upcoming software updates/releases (product?)

Have a good one!
"How we think determines what we do, and what we do determines what we get."

mjfarrell

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Re: Subscription...Product or Service?
« Reply #35 on: May 12, 2011, 06:29:10 PM »
And just because they (or anyone else) call it a service doesn't make it one.
My guess is those that have bought into it call it a service because they have bought into the logic, and
to do otherwise would prove slightly embarrassing.


Cheers!  2xBeer!

Perhaps, and this is purely speculation on my part, many identify subscription as the component they consume most...?

I would hope not.
Be your Best


Michael Farrell
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BlackBox

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Re: Subscription...Product or Service?
« Reply #36 on: May 13, 2011, 08:45:56 AM »
And just because they (or anyone else) call it a service doesn't make it one.
My guess is those that have bought into it call it a service because they have bought into the logic, and
to do otherwise would prove slightly embarrassing.


Cheers!  2xBeer!

Perhaps, and this is purely speculation on my part, many identify subscription as the component they consume most...?

I would hope not.

Just to stir the pot  :evil:....

[EvilMarketingLies] (<-- Just for you Higgsy)

Quote from: Email response from Autodesk
Thank you for showing interest on the Autodesk Subscription.

The Subscription Program is a service which provides you access to Software Upgrades released during Subscription Term, Ancilliary Products and Services like Extensions, Previous Version Rights on selected products, Home Use rights on selected products, Internet Web Based Services, Learning resources, Web Suport, Access to the members-only Subscription Centre, Subscription contract administration tools etc. At the same time, certain Autodesk products are offered exclusively through Autodesk Subscription.

To learn more about the Subscription Program, please refer to the links below:

http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/item?siteID=1157326&id=11676576
http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/index?siteID=123112&id=612485

If you have additional questions or concerns, please do not hesitate to let us know and we will be more than happy to assist you.

Thank you for contacting Autodesk.

Best regards,

<Name Removed>
Autodesk Business Center
 
Original Request:
I want to know if "Subscription" is a service or a product?

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