Topic: Database Question?

[CAB]

I'm thinking a database connection may be the easy solution here but I wanted some input from the community.

My situation is that I'm having to leave my simple world of housing plans due to the economy and doing some light commercial drafting.
The plan I'm working on now is a very small cafe'. The GC in this case relies on me to do most of the design & work in house so I have to develop a simple electrical plan too.
This job has 23 equipment items which need to be displayed in a table with a key for identification. Also I have to show an electrical panel with the items and the volts & amps
required. After 4 revisions I'm getting tired of changing every location where the data lives. So I was wondering how you would coordinate the updating of this data.
I am using plain ACAD2006 at this time so I could create a lisp to transfer data.

My first thought was to create an Excel spread sheet with ALL the relevant date with one row dedicated to attribute tag name, block name and another with the key value.
Then I could read the spread sheet and populate the tables as needed.

Perhaps there is an easier way?

[dgorsman]

For something that small (relatively speaking), I would stick with Excel.  Far easier to read and input than setting up a database, unless you need to pull some really wild searches.  Also considering downstream, the data storage would have to be returned to the client, yes?  Not everybody has database software or knows how to use it.

[CAB]

Yes I was thinking Excel would do fine. How about dbconnect command in ACAD?

First time I looked at it today. Can fields be used in an attributed block or a plain text table that would be
updated when you refreshed the database?

[hmspe]

Electrical is what I do daily. 

Unless you're going to be doing a lot of similar projects I don't see how Excel will help much, especially for small projects.  It would probably take more time to set up Excel and the links than to do manual edits.  I prefer dumb text in dumb schedules.  That way I don't have to remember to keep an Excel file with the .dwg file, and I don't have to be concerned with whether anyone has messed with the Excel file. 

Just my 2 cents.

[Jeff H]

Hey CAB,

Sorry this has nothing to do with original question but,

If you need any help on the electrical PM me and would be glad to help.

If you are developing I maybe can help with some of the 'DOH!'s'

as in:
Sizing of Multiple motorloads,
StoreFront window recp,
Signage requirements,
Size by HP tables------(NEC HP ratings are fudged higher than true conversion to compensate for replacing motor with a less efficent one)
GFI requirements,
Ansul system,
etc.............

Just some basic stuff that came to mind right off hand when dealing with a restaurant.

 

[hmspe]

I'd be glad to help, too.

[CAB]

That's very generous of you two. I may take you up on that.

[VovKa]

xref

[laidbacklarry]

CAB - Way too much overkill for your project, but you might find some useful information in the display of your data on our website:

www.amate-online.com

Much of the code was written in the late 80s, early 90s, so there's some pretty primitive code still hanging around. We initially used compiled dBASE to C code in the days of DOS - unbelievably small and FAST executables. When we were "forced" to convert to Windows, we couldn't find an acceptably fast database program, so we wrote our own database routines in AutoLISP. Files are simple SDF text files, but they work, and that's the important thing.

Let me know if I can offer some insight.

[CAB]

You already have, thanks.

I'll take a look at the link anyway.

[Pepe]

Hi CAB!

I've never tried it, but perhaps you could find a way working with a XREF made for each item you are using: just define constant attribs in the file of each item you use with all the specifications you need, and then retrieve them with a reactor if XREF changes.

Regards from Spain.

[CAB]

Thanks but there is only one. I create the electrical & the equipment table.

At this point I am thinking maybe create the electrical pane & the equipment table in excel & make the electrical table dependent on the equipment table for its entries.

All of this is overkill for what I am doing but I just thought there should be an easier way to update only one spot & have the others change too.

[CAB]

See attached DWG which should be all you need for info.
The large hall way is in an existing building. Used to be a Mall.
This is an open Cafe' being added so only equipment are an added electrical issue.
No changes to existing ceiling, lighting or HVAC.

The main panel is some distance away, maybe 200 plus feet.
If you would look it over and point out any obvious error on my part.
I did not mark any GFCIs yet. It it anything within 6 feet of a sink?


Thanks for any advice.

[hmspe]

A few quick thoughts.  The standard disclaimer that this is not to be considered professional services or advice applies.

There is no 2009 National Electrical Code edition.  It would be either 2008 or 2011.

You will need GFCI protection on all kitchen equipment circuits that are 15A or 20A, and 125V. 

Is the 300A panel existing?  If not I'd try to adjust things to get under 225A (or maybe even 200A).  225A panels are a commodity item.  300A is probably special order.  If you can't get below 225A I'd recommend specifying a 400A panel rather than a 300A, even if the supply is only 300A.  400A is a common size.  200A has an advantage if there are fuses in the upstream distribution switchboard.  200A is a standard size for fused switches, but a 225A panel would use 225A fuses in a 400A switch.  It the mains upstream are breakers then this isn't so much of an issue.

The NEC allows a diversity factor for thermostatically controlled kitchen equipment.  See NEC 220.56.  This might shave off enough load to get under 225A.  You have at least 11 pieces of equipment that are thermostatically controlled, so a 65% demand factor would apply.

A tank type water heater is probably a good idea.  Be sure it has enough capacity.  A 1400W unit probably isn't adequate to meet the requirements for warewashing.  A 4500W unit might be.  Tank-type water heaters are considered continuous loads.  See NEC 422.13. 

Spec #2 makes no sense.  Should be THHN/THWN.  #10 and smaller solid.  Spec 11 is not needed if there are no lighting changes.

Speaking of lighting, in Arizona we have minimum lighting levels required in kitchens.  This is typically 50 foot candles, but can be higher.  Existing lighting in a hallway may not be that bright.

If you can live with 2.68% voltage drop at 200A load then the panel feeder can be either 4/0 copper or 350MCM aluminum.  to get under 2% voltage drop you would need two parallel sets of 2/0 copper or two parallel sets of 4/0 aluminum.  Be sure to do your own calcs. 

Hope that helps.

[CAB]

That's very helpful.
As you can see I'm out of my element & trying to wing it.
The GC typically submits what I produce & the building department sends back a list of required corrections.
Thanks for the panel info I'll try to reduce the load but it may not make the 200Amp.

The panel is not existing.
I already used the 65% on the entire load.

192.8 + 201.2
394.0 TOTAL AMPS
x .65 PER TABLE 220.56
256.1 AMPS CAPACITY

But if we use the smaller demand water heater it will make the 225Amp panel.

I already warned them about inadequate hot water but they don't want to hear it.

Are you saying that the icemaker and coolers can not be included in the 65% calculation?