Topic: Pay for floor plans?

[craigr]

We are a security company that OFTEN gets a customer's AutoCad floor plans to import into our title block, then add our security equipment to that dwg. We have NEVER had anyone hesitate or charge us for the dwg. They sometimes turn off the layers we don't need and send us just the floor plan. Though I usually get EVERYTHING. We also usually have to sign some type if waiver for liability reasons.

We have a new customer that their Engineering firm wants to charge us several hundred dollars for a BASIC floor plan. (Walls, doorways, etc...)

Have any of you heard of this?

craigr

[Keith™]

Never ... and I would promptly tell the client that their engineer wanted to charge... either they client could pay for it, OR pay you to "re-do" what the client has already paid someone else to do.

[Artisan]

If you opt to pay, you could add that fee back on to your fee to cover it. But, I'm with Keith in that you shouldn't.

[AfricaAD]

A customer is charging you for plans that you need to do a job for them? That's a new one.

[craigr]

It isn't the Building owner that wants to charge me, it's the Engineering firm that originally designed /drew them several years ago.

Hopefully, our salesman can present this problem to the owner and the owner can get them for us.

craigr

[Dent Cermak]

The drawings are the property of the paying customer. There should be no charge for a set to do your work on. A copy should be provided to all contracting agents of the paying customer at no charge or the paying customer should have been provided a copy of the e-files for his/her use that they then could send to other necessary contractors.
Evidently your prospective client did not pay the engineer and he is trying to recover costs. Proceede with caution. A LARGE up front fee may be required, if'n yer smart.

[whdjr]

Whoa! Whoa! Whoa!

I as the architect am not going to give out my dwgs to a sub-contractor that is not going to reduce his cost because he no longer has to redraw the floorplan.  If you are producing plans for an engineer to be put in a bid set then they should not charge you.  We have sub-contractors calling us all the time wanting floorplans so they can use them for their shop dwgs.   HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!  We charge them $500.00 per sheet that they ask for.  They usually say no thanks.  The liability is too great for us.

[craigr]

For what we are doing, as described in the original post, there is NO liability.
We offer our control drawins without charge to anyone, (representing the bldg. owner), that asks for them, as a professional courtesy. We of course ask them to sign a liability form, and I remove our title block from the dwg.

I still don't see what the big deal is with giving out a floor plan that shows nothing more than wall & door locations!

craigr

[CAB]

My local print shop will xerox the plans and provide a raster file.
I forgot the fee but it's minor.
Another fellow will change the raster to ACAD file for $50.00 per sheet.

There is always another way.

[Keith™]

If the client never paid the engineer then that could be the issue.... but as a rule I will provide my drawings in electronic format (DWG) to ANY contractor the client has contracted with, of course upon request of the client. The disclaimer is that we keep an archived set of ALL electronic data transfers and if they are changed by the receiving party, our liability ends at the portion they changed. We have the archives to prove the sending of the files so there is no question about whether they have been modified or not. It is evident.

[dubb]

well i thinik i had a similar case but in my case we were the engineering firm and we had a client architect that had a house that was predesigned with details and everything, he bought the plans off the internet but they didnt give the client dwg files or any kind of electronic files. so contacted the firm on that was written on the title block and requested files. they put me on a wild goose chase, calling every firm that had relations to this design.

i finally reached my last contact and they said that it would cost me a pretty penny for the set in electronic format. i said "hell no" and then i had to charge my client extra fees because i had to convert his plans to autocad. which wasnt the easiest job.

[Big G]

Surely when the original work was done for the client they would have received a copy of the "As Built" Drawings? This should be standard practice. But as was said earlier maybe the client didnt pay up fully or retention is still being withheld for an unfinished portion of the job.
Standard practice here is the client should always get an as-built copy of his/her drawings.

[craigr]

Well, as the industry continues to go electronic, and after all of the legal rangling, I am sure that the end result will be that it will be required that the Bldg. Owner will be given an electronic copy that must be updated anytime there is work done to his bldg. I of course don't mean to imply that any of us could forsee all of the 'rules' to this, such as liabilities with updates, etc.... But I am confident that technology will adapt to cover that.


whdjr - (no offense intended, but...) - You will - You might as well start coming up with your rules to cover yourself.

   We have done 250 million dollar bldgs and have been GIVEN the CAD dwgs simply for the asking!! We have done ENTIRE state capitol government bldgs, (23 bldgs. on that job, if I remember right). and been GIVEN the cad dwgs - (those that were in electronic form.)

I understand wanting to get paid for your work, but how many times for the same work. When it comes down to it, the Bldg. owner pays you to draw his bldg. the first time. How many times are you going to charge him for the dwgs. - ANY work that is done for him, he has to pay for it. If we bid a security system without being given the floor plans, then I have to draw the up, and hence he pays me for doing that. - As a bldg. owner I would be FURIOUS if I did not recieve the electronic versions of my bldg.

- craigr

[Dent Cermak]

It's not what WHDJR wants to do or what is his standard practice, but what local law requires. I would suggest a conference with the corporate attorneys. I do not claim to know Georgia Corporate law, but in my state the drawings are the property of the client once paid for.....by law. I cannot release copies of any files to ANYONE without written permission of the client.
Now you can bill anyone that justs waltzes in and wants a copy so they can make an identical building without using you design service, but as long as the requestor is doing so in benefit of and with permission of the paying customer, you cannot legally charge anything other than media cost for the extra copy. We give our clients all of the files on CD's. He can copy who ever from his originals.

[whdjr]

Well, as the industry continues to go electronic, and after all of the legal rangling, I am sure that the end result will be that it will be required that the Bldg. Owner will be given an electronic copy that must be updated anytime there is work done to his bldg. I of course don't mean to imply that any of us could forsee all of the 'rules' to this, such as liabilities with updates, etc.... But I am confident that technology will adapt to cover that.


whdjr - (no offense intended, but...) - You will - You might as well start coming up with your rules to cover yourself.

   We have done 250 million dollar bldgs and have been GIVEN the CAD dwgs simply for the asking!! We have done ENTIRE state capitol government bldgs, (23 bldgs. on that job, if I remember right). and been GIVEN the cad dwgs - (those that were in electronic form.)

I understand wanting to get paid for your work, but how many times for the same work. When it comes down to it, the Bldg. owner pays you to draw his bldg. the first time. How many times are you going to charge him for the dwgs. - ANY work that is done for him, he has to pay for it. If we bid a security system without being given the floor plans, then I have to draw the up, and hence he pays me for doing that. - As a bldg. owner I would be FURIOUS if I did not recieve the electronic versions of my bldg.

- craigr

craigr,

About 95% of our work is doing Pre-K thru 12th grade school work.  Our clients are the local school systems that get their money either through local SPLOST's or Federal grants.  Either way our contract is with school system.  All the engineers are hired by us and paid out of our fee.  The school system has two contracts that they have to sign: 1. Is with us, not with the engineers.  2,  Is with the General Contractor for the job.  The general contractor is chosen by lowest bid price (which I hate - low means bottom of the barrell in most cases).  We give our dwgs to our engineers so that they can facilitate their work for us faster and more accurate (by not missing floor plan changes, etc.).  We don't give out floorplans to sub-contractors for shop dwgs, submittals, or anything without having them sign a waiver and pay a fee for the dwgs (which by the way does return to the client).  Our main reasoning for the fee is to persuade the sub-contractor NOT to get the dwgs.  We have found that the sub-contractors do not lower their prices to the General Contractor even though they did not have the added expense of recreating the floorplans.  If you are working for an engineer then you should receive the plans free.  If you are submitting a competitive bid to a contractor then you should have to pay for the plans and accept ALL the liability if you don't have the latest plans.  For instance, suppose a change is made during the 3rd week of the bidding process and an addendum is issued (which we only issue to the General Contractors) and you didn't get an updated plan from the general contractor.  Therefore you would submit a bid based on old plan and would probably win the work, later to realize the error and want to get paid for the error.  All this does not help the client get their new school any quicker.  We will provide the owner with an electronic set for their records.  If the owner elects to negotiate a certain portion of the contract themselfs (such as security) and requests that we make these plans available to a select party, then we would give the party the plans beacuse we would not have any strings attached.

 

[BAshworth]

Usually, it's dependant on what the contract is between the architect/engineer and the primary client.  Sometimes the client becomes the owner of the files, and other times the architect/engineer retains ownership of them.  (Regardless of whether or not either party keeps the files.  Ownership has to do more with rights to reuseability than physical holding of the files.)

Either way the contract is written, it's usually a good business practice for all parties involved to share files back and forth as much as is legally possible.  If you are an architect, and develop a reputation as being difficult to work with, and add in extra cost to either the owner or the subcontractors (which gets back to the owner, trust me), you will find yourself quickly out of work.

Put a disclaimer on the danged email, remove any seals, and send the files.

[CAB]

Well said.

[craigr]

whdjr - I unerstand your last reply, and even agree to some point, but in OUR case, we sometimes go into existing bldgs, that have been up and running for a number of years. So, we are not bidding against the original architect / engineer. - (Completed bldgs.)

   As I said previously, this will soon be resolved during the initial construction portion. - (Probably by lawyers).

   Unfortunately, in the mean time we need to deal with architects / engineers that want to treat their dwgs as very personal to themselves, and only to be used on jobs that THEY are involved with.

   I personally believe that ANY building documentation that is done as part of the building project, should become the property of the building owner. - (Of course to be accurate ONLY as of the date it was turned over to the owner.) -

   My goal is to make the Building owner VERY HAPPY with ANY of our services, I want him to look at my company as one that he can continually come back to and be confident that I am MORE than willing to work with any job that he has going on with his bldg. NOT just the ones that he is at the moment paying me for! I don't want to get the reputation as being difficult and or unwilling to work with others. - Who knows, you may come across a job in the future that you may need MY assistance / dwgs.

craigr

[whdjr]

Unfortunately, in the mean time we need to deal with architects / engineers that want to treat their dwgs as very personal to themselves, and only to be used on jobs that THEY are involved with.

All of our drawings have a narritive that lists these dwgs as an "instrument of service".  At completion of this service the owner will get these documents, BUT we still have the copyright on these documents.

I personally believe that ANY building documentation that is done as part of the building project, should become the property of the building owner. - (Of course to be accurate ONLY as of the date it was turned over to the owner.) -

This would not work in our case because the State DOE allows Architects to submit "prototype" school plans.  This would not be possible if the owner "OWNED"  the documents.

My goal is to make the Building owner VERY HAPPY with ANY of our services, I want him to look at my company as one that he can continually come back to and be confident that I am MORE than willing to work with any job that he has going on with his bldg. NOT just the ones that he is at the moment paying me for! I don't want to get the reputation as being difficult and or unwilling to work with others. - Who knows, you may come across a job in the future that you may need MY assistance / dwgs.

Our goal is also to make our client happy.  That means repeat business and word of mouth advertising.  It seems we have more in common than we think.

[Bob Garner]

Kinda like AutoCad?  You don't "own" it, you just buy the right to use it.

[M-dub]

Man, I wish the previous owner of my house had some As Builts!  Every time I go to do renovations, I shudder.  Nothing is EVER where it's supposed to be and...ughh!  It's just bad!
Next house is going to be a LOT newer!

[craigr]

whdjr - I agree that we probably do have alot in common, it just sounds like you are apples and I am oranges in alot of our work, and what is required.

   You all watch.... In the years to come, I am willing to bet my boat, that with EVERY NEW house the owner will have the opportunity to possess the electronic copy of 'as builts'.

Everything is going electronic, it's no secret. It's just a matter of time, as to how soon companies / lawyers want to jump into it. I have never bought a NEW house, but a friend of mine had one built, and he was given the paper copy of 'asbuilt' dwgs. - He isn't into computers, (YET!). If I every do either have one built or Buy a NEW house, the software version of the plans would be REQUIRED.

craigr

[CAB]

I was thinking that Adobe may get involved and come out with an add on like the ebooks
feature. You can purchase the pdf file but it is locked up tight. In that way a ACAD/PDF plan
could be printed or added to but the original could not be altered.

[craigr]

CAB

I was thinking that Adobe may get involved and come out with an add on like the ebooks
feature. You can purchase the pdf file but it is locked up tight. In that way a ACAD/PDF plan
could be printed or added to but the original could not be altered.

If the electronic versions were in .pdf form, then they could not be changed, (which is what you are after, I believe.), The problem with this is if the owner wants to move walls, doorways & or add on to his bldg. He then does not have the AutoCad version to modify. - Which is why an original copy is retained by the CREATOR of the dwgs, so it can be a document of how the bldg. was when he turned his over to the owner. Seldom does a bldg. stay the same for very long.

Perhaps this is something the CAD software guru's are working on. Maybe they can design into the software who made what changes  when. Maybe even a way to 'stamp' one's 'certification' on the software copies as we do to the paper copies. (I'd be willing to bet that they are already working on this as we speak.)

I guess we will have to wait and see.

- craigr

[craigr]

For those of you interested -

Get this, The guy that originally wanted to SELL me the CAD dwg that started my rant, has just emailed me the plan for FREE!  

Perhaps he read this thread and realized how the majority handles this. Or, perhaps he needed some existing dwgs, and went through what I was going thru.

Whatever the reason, I am greatful to him. -  

The sad part is that I already drew the plan from the paper version I had. And, spent a considerable amount of time doing it! (Ruler / draw.)

Oh well, I will now import HIS dwg & Paste over mine to see how much I was off.

craigr

[t-bear]

.....or how much HE is off.......!!! LOL

[sinc]

Actually, this is something we've run into a few times now (in fact, just earlier today...).  I believe there may now wording in the contract that is sent to the client (before starting work) that we will need electronic versions of drawings (if the project warrants it), or the client will be billed extra for costs incured because of it.

So far, the way it has generally played out:  Engineer says we must pay to get drawings.  We refuse.  We start trying to do the surveying, and realize that the plans do not contain enough information to reproduce - in effect, they are incomplete (BAD) plans.  Rather than fix the plans and reissue them to all contractors involved, the engineer relents and sends us the electronics (usually with a disclaimer).  This is the way it goes nearly every time.  Whenever we've had this problem, we have NEVER gotten a set of plans we can just recreate from the paper set.  There is ALWAYS critical information left off and/or improperly labeled.  I won't comment on what I think of this, I will just say that we are not too proud to take advantage of it.  

In the case today, the guy said company policy was NEVER RELEASE ANY DRAWING.  He wouldn't even sell it to us.  The job is relatively simple, and the engineer agreed to fix the problems with the plans rather than send us the electronics (which didn't matter to us, because this is a VERY SMALL job), so we let this one drop.

We think the whole practice is pretty scummy.  After all, the client who is paying us to do the surveying is the same client who payed for the engineering/architecture.  Withholding plans from us and forcing us to redraw them is not only error-prone and unnecessarily wasteful of time and resources, it is a waste of money for the client.  So far, it's never reached the point where we had to contact a client and pressure the release of anything, or anything like that.  The inherent laziness of the engineer or architect always wins out.  

[craigr]

Well, I'm sad to say that I ended up being about 15' off over a 1500' distance. (there were many angles that I had to guess at).

Oh well

craigr

[t-bear]

15' huh?  'At ain't so bad......... LOL

[nivuahc]

About 95% of our work is doing Pre-K thru 12th grade school work.

BTBB?

[craigr]

Okay, I'll bite.

What is BTBB?

[nivuahc]

The initials of a firm that we do work with in Macon Georgia.

[jwisherd]

Computer copies should not cost to pass on, as the various subs should be working together to give the client the project they want at a resonable price. Every time 1 firm jacks up the price to pass along info it ends up hitting the client in the end. Now if it is cost incurred in making hard copies, I can see that, and we often pass along those fees to those who request the addtional hardcopies.  But cad files should not  generaal come with a fee when passed along to someone else working on the same project.
Who are you working for? The engineering firm? the Client? the Architect?

[craigr]

That's a 'touchy' question.

The END result is that we are ALL working for the bldg. owner. -

BUT we are really working for the contractor that is PAYING us as a subcontractor.

Luckily, 99% of our Security jobs are directly to the Bldg. owner.

Bottom line, you have be careful not to step on ANY toes when chasing dwgs.

craigr

[dubb]

i dont know if im hijacking your thread, and i mighth not have read all the posts here but i had this situation at work...where these clients would buy a whole set of architectural plans off the internet or from somewhere. the problem was that there wasnt a dwg file it was a str8 set of plans copied. my company loses profit on these types of projects, so my boss turns them down. the budget doesnt meet client satisfication. there is lack of an architect. the only guess i have on loss of profit due to this situation is the drafting time.

[Keith™]

i dont know if im hijacking your thread, and i mighth not have read all the posts here but i had this situation at work...where these clients would buy a whole set of architectural plans off the internet or from somewhere. the problem was that there wasnt a dwg file it was a str8 set of plans copied. my company loses profit on these types of projects, so my boss turns them down. the budget doesnt meet client satisfication. there is lack of an architect. the only guess i have on loss of profit due to this situation is the drafting time.

Well, let me tell you about those plans ... I have had people bring me a "complete" set of plans from one of those books where you pay $600 and you get the construction documents and guess what ... they ARE NOT BUILDABLE ... I have seen various obvious and some not so obvious errors in those plans, such as support posts being shown on the floor plan, but not in the basement ... they don't just magically hang in the air ya' know ... how about a second floor bathroom that is directly over a first floor volume ceiling ... or a second floor that is larger than the first floor ... or an elevation that cannot be made to match the floor plans because it does not even look like the same house.

People buy pictures ... and you can draw some really pretty pictures, unfortunately it would be akin to building an escher mobius

[dubb]

right....! some people cut corners and have poor planning...."poor planning in your part should not complicate me" someone said that to me...and they might be right.

[whdjr]

About 95% of our work is doing Pre-K thru 12th grade school work.

BTBB?

Nope.

DeLoach Architects