Author Topic: Revision History  (Read 23434 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

CADaver

  • Guest
Revision History
« Reply #30 on: January 06, 2005, 09:03:27 PM »
Quote from: Keith
But here is one for you ... what if the client is ready to build, and all he wants to do is revert to the previous revision and change a single window size....YOU would end up revising the drawing and likely spend hours doing so while I would have it done in a matter of seconds and move on to the next project.
Hours for a single window size?? I don't think so.  If anyone here took more than a couple minutes to revise a window size, he wouldn't be here long.

Now let's extend your scenerio a step, the same client does the same thing, only instead of the last revisions window size, he want the revison before that's wondow size.  What are your options?  Cut-n-paste the old window sizes? Go ahead and make the changes to the current revision?  Cut-n-paste the current design into the old window sizes?  Sounds like keepin the earlier revision has done little good unless the entire last revision is scraped as well.


Quote from: Keith
Oh my fellow, you would NEVER make it in the aerospace industry
Oh? I did quite well in aerospace, but that was years ago, and I was a cub in the lofting bay....

Quote from: Keith
some of those controls have been though hundreds of revisions and there are hundreds of those controls in the marketplace....each revision only working with certain other revisions....if you requested the "latest" revision on a part, your part would never fit or might cause serious consequenses if it did fit....
Not latest part, but latest drawing revision.  Granted it was a long time ago and things change, but while the parts go through significant changes over time, the "DRAWING" of a part for a particular installation would remain valid for that model.  (ie The hydraulic cylinder for the rudder of the Boeing 727-100c was modified several times prior to the 727-200QC, but the latest revision of the drawings for the original 727-100c part are still valid for the original part.)

Quote from: Keith
I might add that a DWG format file is infinitely more useful to the designing staff than a jpg, bitmap, tiff, or pdf of the same project.
Certainly, we keep the current file status in DWG format.  Only the previous revisions are PDF'ed.  

Oh, on a point you made in another post about PDF's requiing more space than drawings, not true at all on our end.  Three dozen 250K pdf's won't come anywhere near the 30-40MB file size of the original model, which will have to follow the previous revisions as well if they are to maintain viability.

Keith™

  • Villiage Idiot
  • Seagull
  • Posts: 16899
  • Superior Stupidity at its best
Revision History
« Reply #31 on: January 07, 2005, 12:17:01 AM »
When referring to the single window size change I was speaking of the sceanrio where a client wishes to back up to a previous revision, with the only changes to that previous revision being the size of the windows......

IF you have significantly changed that drawing with 1 or more changes and no longer have the drawing at the REV_2 level, you will have to redraw (undo your work) to the previous state.... while you are busy undoing and redoing, I will have long completed my task of changing a window size....

What you are continually failing to understand is that there is nothing sacred in an architectural drawing,  they are subject to change at any time before, during and after construction. Maybe this will help you understand ....

Client requests modification to restroom layout ... we comply ... Later client requests mods to the kitchen, which is directly affected by the location and size of the restroom,  we comply, on the next revision, the client realizes the kitchen will not work as they had originally thought ...(this is the most common reason for reverting back to previous revisions), so they want the bathroom back like it was in the 2nd previous revision ... I can merely open that drawing, make the minimal changes to the kitchen and it is completed, if I were relegated to use your method, I would have to redraw the kitchen and the bathroom, as opposed to one or the other. The time savings can be immense.

There seems to me, as cheap as media is today and as simple as it is to put the data on disk and archive in a fireproof room (yes we do that on a daily basis),  to be no good reason for not doing it except for being a stick in the mud ... "we never did it that way before so we ain't gonna start now" attitude will cost you money when dealing with drawings that are small enough to fit an entire project on a floppy.

At my last company, we had a bean counter tell us that it was costing too much time and money to do a daily backup of our files (we had nearly 40 gigs of files at an average size of 300k each) The tape backup was too slow, the time spent could be better utilized etc... all of the good reasons why we shouldn't do it...UNTIL...one day the server crashed....and it crashed bad....we had two options....put the entire office staff on 12 hour days 7 days a week until we could recreate all of the lost drawings, OR pay a recovery company nearly $20k to recover the data, verify the data, and give us the recovered files. In the end, we spent just in overtime alone enough money to have paid a full time person to simply sit in the office everyday m-f and copy the files to CDs for an entire year. The recovered files took nearly 6 weeks to get back, we hired 4 more people and worked 7 days a week, 12 hour days trying to create what we needed just to get by on a daily basis, it took us nearly a year and half to recover from that one incident.

I count it as insurance ... a necessary evil if you will ... you can either pay now, or pay later, and you WILL pay at some point ... it can either be an easy pill to swallow now OR you can explain to your boss why the lack of a $0.10 CD caused you to spend $500 reinventing the wheel, or in our case, why the lack of a $9 tape caused us nearly $38k in unexpected charges over the course of a year.

In my business you either save the revisions or you end up redrawing them in the end ... the client could care less how we do it, but it saves me a heap of work on a daily basis.
Proud provider of opinion and arrogance since November 22, 2003 at 09:35:31 am
CadJockey Militia Field Marshal

Find me on https://parler.com @kblackie

CADaver

  • Guest
Revision History
« Reply #32 on: January 07, 2005, 08:29:06 AM »
Quote from: Keith
IF you have significantly changed that drawing with 1 or more changes and no longer have the drawing at the REV_2 level, you will have to redraw (undo your work) to the previous state.... while you are busy undoing and redoing, I will have long completed my task of changing a window size....
Fine you can back up to the kitchen mods of Rev 2, what do you do with the mods that occured during revs 3 & 4?  Going back to Rev 2 only helps if everything done since, Revs 3 & 4, is voided as well.  And I don't think you're counting the time it takes to save, maintain, and search, the saved revisions.


Quote from: Keith
What you are continually failing to understand is that there is nothing sacred in an architectural drawing,  they are subject to change at any time before, during and after construction.
Oh, I understand it quite well, I have a half a dozen architects working for me right now.


Quote from: Keith
Client requests modification to restroom layout ... we comply ... Later client requests mods to the kitchen, which is directly affected by the location and size of the restroom,  we comply, on the next revision, the client realizes the kitchen will not work as they had originally thought ...(this is the most common reason for reverting back to previous revisions), so they want the bathroom back like it was in the 2nd previous revision ... I can merely open that drawing, make the minimal changes to the kitchen and it is completed,
And what do you do with the changes that occured to the living area between the two kitchen changes?

Quote from: Keith
if I were relegated to use your method, I would have to redraw the kitchen and the bathroom, as opposed to one or the other.
Did you REDRAW the entire kitchen to make the now undesired revision?  Or did you just make the mods needed? You're exaggerating the "REDRAW" effort, a wall moves, you move it back, no biggie.


Quote from: Keith
There seems to me, as cheap as media is today and as simple as it is to put the data on disk and archive in a fireproof room (yes we do that on a daily basis),  
The cost of the media is nothing, but manhours are expensive, VERY expensive.  Now if your time worth nothing, there is no cost involved in copying files and caryying them around, but billing rates around here are considerably more expensive than "nothing".  Consider 200 designers handling an average of 4 drawings files a day spending just 20 seconds each saving and storing the files.  That's over 4 manhours a day at an average billing rate of $40 or $40,000 a year.

Quote from: Keith
At my last company, we had a bean counter tell us that it was costing too much time and money to do a daily backup of our files
....
or in our case, why the lack of a $9 tape caused us nearly $38k in unexpected charges over the course of a year.
A completly different topic that has nothing to do with saving previous revisions.


Quote from: Keith
OR you can explain to your boss why the lack of a $0.10 CD caused you to spend $500 reinventing the wheel,
Is easier to explain than a $40,000 revision history maintenance cost.


Quote from: Keith
In my business you either save the revisions or you end up redrawing them in the end ...
I still think you're exaggerating the "redraw" effort.


Quote from: Keith
the client could care less how we do it, but it saves me a heap of work on a daily basis.
Then by all means carry on.

whdjr

  • Guest
Revision History
« Reply #33 on: January 07, 2005, 08:44:16 AM »
I guess this thread now has become "The Dueling Quoters". :lol:

CADaver

  • Guest
Revision History
« Reply #34 on: January 07, 2005, 09:31:08 AM »
Quote from: whdjr
I guess this thread now has become "The Dueling Quoters". :lol:
That usually how it goes when Keith and I begin to ummm...  uhhh... compare notes??

Keith™

  • Villiage Idiot
  • Seagull
  • Posts: 16899
  • Superior Stupidity at its best
Revision History
« Reply #35 on: January 07, 2005, 09:46:33 AM »
Quote from: CADaver
Fine you can back up to the kitchen mods of Rev 2, what do you do with the mods that occured during revs 3 & 4? Going back to Rev 2 only helps if everything done since, Revs 3 & 4, is voided as well. And I don't think you're counting the time it takes to save, maintain, and search, the saved revisions.


You either cannot see my position or you do not want to see it, either way, my point is that we have many times thrown away 4 or even 5 complete revisions and started back with a previous state. This is the RULE when dealing with most people, not the exception, so when you get to that point you do what is needed to make your job easier, in the end the cost is a very small aspect of the problem.

Quote from: CADaver
And what do you do with the changes that occured to the living area between the two kitchen changes?

More often than not a client will key in on a specific area, I can cut and paste a revision from an earlier incarnation faster than I can redraw it. You can too if you are truthful to yourself. That IS why we have wblocks, so we don't have to redraw everything every time.

Quote from: CADaver
Did you REDRAW the entire kitchen to make the now undesired revision? Or did you just make the mods needed? You're exaggerating the "REDRAW" effort, a wall moves, you move it back, no biggie.


Now you are starting to sound like the CAD manager you are .... trust me ... nothing is that simple EVER .. if it were you could have anyone use AutoCAD but you can't. The most common misconception is that you just move a wall ... what about the plumbing? electrical? HVAC? Cabinet design? all of those things will need to be addressed...if not you will have serious consequences in the field.

Quote from: CADaver
The cost of the media is nothing, but manhours are expensive, VERY expensive. Now if your time worth nothing, there is no cost involved in copying files and caryying them around, but billing rates around here are considerably more expensive than "nothing". Consider 200 designers handling an average of 4 drawings files a day spending just 20 seconds each saving and storing the files. That's over 4 manhours a day at an average billing rate of $40 or $40,000 a year.


So you don't backup your drawings? If you do, who does it ... do your designers not SAVE their drawing once they do it? It takes absolutely no more time to save a file as FP1_R2.dwg than it does as FP1_R1.dwg so that argument is invalid you too MUST save your drawings.... only in my field our drawings will save faster than I can press the key to save it. The time to save is more like 0.003 seconds not 20 seconds ... and you too archive your drawings, as do we....you save yours as PDF I save mine as DWG.... only difference is that if in 6 months I need to get something from a previous version, rather than redraw it, I can cut and paste, saving me untold manhours, while you would have to redraw it.

Quote from: CADaver
A completly different topic that has nothing to do with saving previous revisions.

Perhaps, but the fact is that our method works as a backup means as well. We operate off of CD-RW media, each client has one CD, it is checked in and out of the fire room at the beginning and end of each day, now perhaps that IS overkill seeing how the most common loss of data is user error and hardware malfunction, but here in the south, particularly where our office is located, fire is a real threat, particularly during the summer months.

Quote from: CADaver
Is easier to explain than a $40,000 revision history maintenance cost.


I don't have 200 users, I have 6 users, if we spend 20 seconds saving our drawings (which you do too) an average of 4 per day, that equates to about 40 minutes a week or about 35 hours a year .... to discount your $40 billing rate (that is NOT what you paid) lets say $12.00 per hour for a cad jockey .... that is $420 per year ... this week alone previous revisions have saved me 12 man-hours so now we only have an annual expense of $276 ..... I suspect the next couple of weeks I'll likely be in the positive for the year, thereby costing us money NOT to save the previous versions.

You have admitted that you indeed also mantain drawing revisions in PDF format... even if it is for space constraints, you too are doing the exact same thing I am, except your files say .pdf on the end and mine say .dwg on the end ... and my dwg files are seldomly larger than 250k ... If I were to implement your procedures here, it would mean more storage space would be required, more maintenance would be required (I'd have to get a pdf writer for each user, or burden one user with the task of doing all of the pdf plotting)

I think your argument has been proven to be incorrect.
Proud provider of opinion and arrogance since November 22, 2003 at 09:35:31 am
CadJockey Militia Field Marshal

Find me on https://parler.com @kblackie

whdjr

  • Guest
Revision History
« Reply #36 on: January 07, 2005, 10:15:19 AM »
Quote from: CADaver
That usually how it goes when Keith and I begin to ummm... uhhh... compare notes??


Is that what they're calling these days...  "comparing notes".

Thanks for the clarification.

CADaver

  • Guest
Revision History
« Reply #37 on: January 07, 2005, 12:03:32 PM »
Quote from: Keith
You either cannot see my position or you do not want to see it,
Oh, I see it, I just disagree with it.

Quote from: Keith
my point is that we have many times thrown away 4 or even 5 complete revisions and started back with a previous state.
And that is often the case? Nothing in the intermediate versions is required?

Quote from: Keith
This is the RULE when dealing with most people,
I think that's the problem.  It may be the case with the few folks you deal with, but it is NOT the for "most" by far.  I've worked with clients on everything from carports to 90 story commercial buildings and I've NEVER had a client trash 4 or 5 complete revisions.  "MOST" are considerably more frugal than that, at least the ones I've dealt with over the last 30 years are.  If I had a client that trashed 4 or 5 complete revisions, he'd better have a check-writting arm that's in shape.

Quote from: Keith
More often than not a client will key in on a specific area, I can cut and paste a revision from an earlier incarnation faster than I can redraw it. You can too if you are truthful to yourself. That IS why we have wblocks, so we don't have to redraw everything every time.
Quite truthful, and again two different topics, let's try to confine it to one at a time.

Quote from: Keith
Now you are starting to sound like the CAD manager you are .... trust me ... nothing is that simple EVER ..
Taking the cue from you and your "just cut-n-paste" scenerio.  You're quite right it is never that simple, neither is the "cut-n-paste".

Oh, BTW, you're right I am a Cad Manager, have been for over a dozen years.  But I also log an average of 50 hrs a week as a production designer, and have been for over 30 years (20 with ACAD).  So I am very familiar with what it takes to push a design out the door.


Quote from: Keith
if it were you could have anyone use AutoCAD but you can't.
Anyone CAN use the tool to the limits of his/her training.

Quote from: Keith
The most common misconception is that you just move a wall ... what about the plumbing? electrical? HVAC? Cabinet design? all of those things will need to be addressed...if not you will have serious consequences in the field.
Same goes for your cut-n-paste method.  You just can't paste the kitchen from Rev 2 into the floor plan for Rev 5 if Revs 3 and 4 have changed the adjacent spaces.


Quote from: Keith
So you don't backup your drawings?
Again a different topic, one at a time, please.


Quote from: Keith
do your designers not SAVE their drawing once they do it? It takes absolutely no more time to save a file as FP1_R2.dwg than it does as FP1_R1.dwg so that argument is invalid you too MUST save your drawings....
Changing file names is not an option if you're trying to be efficient using XREF's.  Now if you wish we can discuss the advantages/disadvantages of their use, but that is another topic as well.  So for us to maintain the previous revision, we'd need to save the drawing, and ALL it's associated XREF's as well to a different location.  I was being generous when I said 20 seconds.  The little area paving drawing I'm working right now has 17 XREF's.  Getting all those to a separate directory properly named would take a little longer than 20 sec.


Quote from: Keith
difference is that if in 6 months I need to get something from a previous version, rather than redraw it, I can cut and paste, saving me untold manhours, while you would have to redraw it.
you're exaggerating again.

Quote from: Keith
We operate off of CD-RW media, each client has one CD,
One CD would barely hold one of our files.  That's not true, it'd hold about a dozen and a half, so for the project I'm on now, I'd need... ummmm...  lesee... carry the two... ummm... 2,000 CDs... ummm... no thank you.

(BTW, on another topic, have you been paying attention to the flack about poor disk longevity with CD-RW?  You may wish to check it out.)

Quote from: Keith
it is checked in and out of the fire room at the beginning and end of each day, now perhaps that IS overkill seeing how the most common loss of data is user error and hardware malfunction, but here in the south, particularly where our office is located, fire is a real threat, particularly during the summer months.
We're fully networked, and utilize mrrored servers in remote locations and daily tape back-ups of both.


Quote from: Keith
I don't have 200 users, I have 6 users, if we spend 20 seconds saving our drawings (which you do too) an average of 4 per day, that equates to about 40 minutes a week or about 35 hours a year .... to discount your $40 billing rate (that is NOT what you paid)
I wouldn't do this for only $40 an hour, but that's me.  The billing rate is what the client is paying us for each hour burned, regardless of what we pay the guy that burns it.


Quote from: Keith
lets say $12.00 per hour for a cad jockey ....
Jenkies Scooby, we pay entry-level more than that.  Heck, my secretary makes more than that (but then she has to keep ME in line).


Quote from: Keith
You have admitted that you indeed also mantain drawing revisions in PDF format... even if it is for space constraints, you too are doing the exact same thing I am, except your files say .pdf on the end and mine say .dwg on the end ...
Hardly, the PDF are created during the batch plot sequence and added to the contract ZIP file automatically. It requires no user interface.  I could batch some sort of eTransmit function to collect all the necessary support files for each drawing at each revision, but that would add serious time to the process.


Quote from: Keith
and my dwg files are seldomly larger than 250k ...
It's been years since we've seen a file size that small, not since r12 anyway.


Quote from: Keith
(I'd have to get a pdf writer for each user, or burden one user with the task of doing all of the pdf plotting)
Nope, see above.


Quote from: Keith
I think your argument has been proven to be incorrect.
Hardly, it's only proven to be "not what you desire"

CADaver

  • Guest
Revision History
« Reply #38 on: January 07, 2005, 12:08:54 PM »
Quote from: whdjr
Quote from: CADaver
That usually how it goes when Keith and I begin to ummm... uhhh... compare notes??


Is that what they're calling these days...  "comparing notes".

Thanks for the clarification.
umm... sure, what would you call it?  At first glance it may seem unseemly, but Keith and I just approach the software from two completely different design worlds.  

We could still share a coffee at the corner diner without drawing blood...  I think... maybe...
ummm...
yo Keith, you're not at the corner diner are you??

Keith™

  • Villiage Idiot
  • Seagull
  • Posts: 16899
  • Superior Stupidity at its best
Revision History
« Reply #39 on: January 07, 2005, 01:06:49 PM »
Just so you know ... I am not telling you that your way is wrong or should be changed, only that our method has proven to provide the best balance between effort and cost.

To address your latest comments ...

Yes, it is not uncommon to completely do away with 2 or 3 revisions and go back to a previous revision without any changes ... sometimes I think the client just wants to see what it would look like 3 or 4 different ways and then they choose the one that best suits them.

You should keep in mind that we deal with people who have the expectation that we will do as they ask...yes they pay ... and I might add DEARLY ... In an area where the average cost of a home is around $70 sf, ours lowest cost project runs in the neighborhood or $200 sf. I had one almost $800 sf.... We won't even look at starting a set of preliminary drawings for a client without a $10k deposit, they pay and they demand.. so we charge ... this IS our clientele, yes I have worked in other industries where you tell the client what they can have and they take it ... but in this company, it is either cater to the client or the client finds someone who will .... that is why we keep all previous revisions...does that make me a bad person for charging a client a $1000 for a revision set that all I have to so is plot and seal? I don't think so ... I think it makes me a shrewd business person... in fact just a little while ago I had a salesman come in and tell me to pull the third revision of a different client, change the name on the title block, plot them out and seal them.... I have to do absolutely nothing EXCEPT change the name, plot them, and stamp them. Now how more efficient can that be....also just so you know our clients and sales staff DO have a paper copy (sometimes PDF) of all revisions and they expect that if you HAD it you still do...and they frequently share them with other clients...

FYI.. $12 per hour is actually a pretty decent wage here ... typically beginning salary in this area for a cad jockey is $10 ... top wages are near $18 ... so there is a huge disparity in the cost aspect between your situation and mine.

Here again ... we have a limited number of xrefs, maybe 3 per set of plans, those do not get renamed, in fact only the parent folder gets renamed ... all subfolders remain the same.... there is no maintenance and no tracking required.... you pop in the CD, open the folder and see the revision history immediately, simply pick which one you want. If you want a new one, create the next revision folder, drop your files there and continue on.

As you stated our files are VERY small typically and in 2004+ they are even smaller ....

I personally don't care if the CD-RW media is no good after a year or two, by then the project is complete and the client won't need it anymore ... If it maintains integrity and I can use it, fine ... I will, otherwise I'll just take my chances....

Oh... and I am not at the corner diner today ... I brought my lunch ... How about another time ...
Proud provider of opinion and arrogance since November 22, 2003 at 09:35:31 am
CadJockey Militia Field Marshal

Find me on https://parler.com @kblackie

CADaver

  • Guest
Revision History
« Reply #40 on: January 07, 2005, 01:37:50 PM »
Quote from: Keith
 sometimes I think the client just wants to see what it would look like 3 or 4 different ways and then they choose the one that best suits them.
We handle that in the preliminary phase, and yes wee keep all those options active until the final set is agreed upon and construction documents are issued.  Because we handle procurement, construction and installation as well, we burn a lot of time getting the design solidified prior to the construction issue.  Once the construction documents are released, the very cheapest part of any revision would be the redraw effort.  Once $9000 worth of stainless is cut to fit a $4500 commercial range, it's real expensive to "uncut".


Quote from: Keith
You should keep in mind that we deal with people who have the expectation that we will do as they ask...yes they pay ... and I might add DEARLY ...
ours as well, I just think our project scale is different.


Quote from: Keith
In an area where the average cost of a home is around $70 sf, ours lowest cost project runs in the neighborhood or $200 sf. I had one almost $800 sf.... We won't even look at starting a set of preliminary drawings for a client without a $10k deposit, they pay and they demand.. so we charge ... this IS our clientele,  yes I have worked in other industries where you tell the client what they can have and they take it ... but in this company, it is either cater to the client or the client finds someone who will ....
And therein lies the major difference. Our clients don't come to us because we'll do it their way, but because we can do it at all.  Most of our stuff is schedule driven, it gets done by May 1 (or whatever) or it doesn't get done. Like the old saying, you get things done fast, cheap, or accurate (read your way), but only two at a time.


Quote from: Keith
that is why we keep all previous revisions...does that make me a bad person for charging a client a $1000 for a revision set that all I have to so is plot and seal?
Hope not, we have several Off-The-Shelf designs we charge full price for. 1MW, 5MW, 10MW, 20MW and 50MW power generation facilities, for which all we need is acceptable soil conditions.


Quote from: Keith
FYI.. $12 per hour is actually a pretty decent wage here ... typically beginning salary in this area for a cad jockey is $10 ... top wages are near $18 ... so there is a huge disparity in the cost aspect between your situation and mine.
Sheesh, I'll say.  You don't wanna know what I just hired a contract mechanical designer for.


Quote from: Keith
I personally don't care if the CD-RW media is no good after a year or two, by then the project is complete and the client won't need it anymore ... If it maintains integrity and I can use it, fine ... I will, otherwise I'll just take my chances....
Some recent stuff was showing file degradation after only 60 days.  Had something to do with the adhesive on labels. So be careful.


Quote from: Keith
Oh... and I am not at the corner diner today ... I brought my lunch ... How about another time ...
Sure, I'll be in Orlando next weekend for a wedding.

Keith™

  • Villiage Idiot
  • Seagull
  • Posts: 16899
  • Superior Stupidity at its best
Revision History
« Reply #41 on: January 07, 2005, 02:24:51 PM »
Well, unfortunately I'll be in Jacksonville next weekend.... Maybe one day ...
Proud provider of opinion and arrogance since November 22, 2003 at 09:35:31 am
CadJockey Militia Field Marshal

Find me on https://parler.com @kblackie

CADaver

  • Guest
Revision History
« Reply #42 on: January 07, 2005, 02:48:15 PM »
"Missed it by thaat much"

whdjr

  • Guest
Revision History
« Reply #43 on: January 10, 2005, 10:32:19 AM »
Quote from: CADaver
Quote from: whdjr
Quote from: CADaver
That usually how it goes when Keith and I begin to ummm... uhhh... compare notes??


Is that what they're calling these days...  "comparing notes".

Thanks for the clarification.
umm... sure, what would you call it?  At first glance it may seem unseemly, but Keith and I just approach the software from two completely different design worlds.  

We could still share a coffee at the corner diner without drawing blood...  I think... maybe...
ummm...
yo Keith, you're not at the corner diner are you??


That is good to know that coffee is what keeps you to together. :lol:

Seriously though, it's good to see a debate not turn ugly, just serious.

Thanks guys,

CADaver

  • Guest
Revision History
« Reply #44 on: January 10, 2005, 10:46:08 AM »
Quote from: whdjr
That is good to know that coffee is what keeps you to together. :lol:

Seriously though, it's good to see a debate not turn ugly, just serious.

Thanks guys,
You're welcome.  

BTW, I have to go the coffee route, I used up all my alcohol privileges and I don't wanna have to go back to those meetings.