Topic: 64 bit or 32 bit - Autocad mainly

[JCTER]

So I'm on the advent of a new work machine.

The IT consultant we use for occasional help says that there shouldn't be any problems as far as our office goes, so long as things are ok on my end with CAD software.

So, as far as Autocad goes, is there any reason -not- to install 64 bit Windows 7 and 64 bit versions of Autocad?

As far as Autocad goes, we're not going to do any verticals, but may get addons such as CADWorx.  We may get Navisworks soon as well though priority for that has somewhat lessened.

I do some 3d modeling that can, at times, get a bit demanding, even with the use of xrefs and layers to aid me as much as possible.

I'm basically wanting to go with 64 bit to hopefully get more performance, and just wanting to make sure "the coast is clear"

Anyone have any cautionary tales?

[mjfarrell]

do it
to it

[JohnK]

I am using Win7 x64 and AutoCAD MEP 08 x86 with "little" little problem.

[Kerry]

Be aware that there are/were issues with the Microsoft Jet Drivers reading .MDB files in a 64 bit System
(ie do you rely on accessing Access Programmatically ?)

http://www.theswamp.org/index.php?topic=33933.msg392713#msg392713


My main tip would be to get a goodly amount of system memory (some boards max at 8GB .. you'll find that nom12GB is better

[JCTER]

Thankfully I don't have to deal with Access at all.

Autocad
Outlook
Excel
Firefox

That's pretty much the extent of my general tools.

I don't know what the max memory is for the board, but I will check.  I haven't seen the parts that the IT guy spec'd out.  I gave him some general minimums and he appears to have not pulled any punches.  He told me the video card and one was a nVidia Quadro with 1gb memory, up to 3 monitors supported.  Will be a vast improvement over this GeForce 6800 !!  I also forget to ask about what RAM he's quoted.  He laughed when I said I've got 2GB on my computer and couldn't believe I was still getting by on it.  Hopefully that's a good sign.

However, I will keep in mind the memory expansion ability.

The only other hassle I could think of is... printer drivers?

[LE3]

Thankfully I don't have to deal with Access at all.

Autocad
Outlook
Excel
Firefox

That's pretty much the extent of my general tools.

I have A2009 and 2010 on my x64 machine and all of the above from your list (and word, etc....) and runs without any issue

[JohnK]

Print drivers are a problem; my print server is x86 and causes problems but not too bad for office printer/copiers.

One problem i am having is an uncommon paper size index list between the two (64 and 32 bit) in the PC3 file. I am using Ghostscript installed on the print server and a shared PC3 file.

I can explain more tomorrow; Im going to bed now.

Later,

[JCTER]

hahah, the boss's Laptop has already been spec'd at 64-bit, so I can just sit back and wait for him to find out the real problems with printing, and then just apply his fixes to my computer later.

Dell Precision T5500
Quad Core E5507, 2.26ghz, 4M, 4.8GT/s
4GB DDR3 ECC SDRAM 1333MHz 4x1GB
512MB PCIe x16 NVIDIA Quadro FX 580 Dual Monitor DVI +2 DP Dell Precision TX500
300GB SATA, 10k RPM with 16MB DataBurst Cache

I should be ok.

[JohnK]

Printing to an office doc machine (copy machine or whatever) isnt that bad.

How do you guys print from AutoCAD?

For example (here are my procedure{s}):
I print to file and send that file to the printer (in house custom accounting software) or convert it to a PDF or both.
I have ghostscript installed on the print server and i use a PC3 file for my AutoCAD.



EDIT: for some reason my fat fingers typed the strike-through tag...sorry.

[JCTER]

I plot directly from Autocad to the office printer / plotter using either the system printer or a pc3 file.  I have concerns about the HP plotter over there, but I rarely plot to it, and if necessary, we can use one of the other office computers to plot the PDFs to it.

[JohnK]

hummm...let me think.

Are the drivers on each machine?

Worstcase: x64 driver on your machine and a x86 driver on the print server. It works and shouldn't be a big problem but screened lines can show up goofy on older HP laser jets i noticed.


EDIT: i should add that im just spitballin' here and i tend to talk gibberish when i do that so bear with me.

[JCTER]

Yea, we have drivers on each machine.

[JCTER]

Awesome, this quote was actually lower than the other, and seemingly better:

Processor:    Quad Core Intel Xeon W3530 2.80GHz,8M L3,4.8GT/s,Dell Precision T3500 (317-4243)
Memory:    4GB, DDR3 ECC SDRAM Memory 1333MHz, 2X2GB Dell Precision T3500 (317-0118)
Video Card:    1GB ATI FirePro V5800,Triple Monitor,2 DP & 1 DVI,Dell Fixed Precision (320-9260)
Hard Drive:    300GB SATA,10K RPM Hard Drive with 16MB DataBurst Cache,DellPrecision TX500 (341-8836)
Operating System:    Windows 7 Professional, No Media, 64-bit, Fixed Precision, English (421-1486)

[JohnK]

Yea, we have drivers on each machine.

You'll be fine

[sinc]

Are you locked into Dell?  If not, you may want to compare Xi Computers as well.  I've been more impressed with their machines than with Dell's.

[JCTER]

Are you locked into Dell?  If not, you may want to compare Xi Computers as well.  I've been more impressed with their machines than with Dell's.

Pretty much.  Our IT consultant is a Dell reseller.  He likes their service and tech support.

[mjfarrell]

Dude...friends don't let friends buy Dell.


No really...a good quality machine; even if built by yourself really requires NO service or support.

I've built many machines over the years and have yet needed to provide any service or support for said machines after they are turned on and running.

[M-dub]

Dude...friends don't let friends buy Dell.


No really...a good quality machine; even if built by yourself really requires NO service or support.

I've built many machines over the years and have yet needed to provide any service or support for said machines after they are turned on and running.

Do you drive your car around without insurance?  The liklihood of you using your insurance may be slim to none, but it's still a good idea to have it (besides the fact that it's illegal NOT to).

[mjfarrell]

uh no to the insurance thing...however I do build all my own pc's..and perform my own laptop support as needed

I even installed my own engine in both my car and truck...no crime in that either

[mohnston]

If you use customization be aware that you might need to update those programs.
In addition to the jet database driver there are other issues. By the way the jet db can effect more than Access. Some programs use it to work with Excel or even text files.
The User Account Control can become an issue if any program wants to access files located in restricted locations. (Program Files etc.)

[JCTER]

I have wide open control of my workstation, as we all do in our office, with the possible exception of the office admin lady.  Her computer has just been subject to high turnover rate.

I don't see the UAC being a problem.  I've been used to Windows 7 as I have it on my laptop at home.  It's actually given me -just- the right amount of alerts, warnings, and ability to stop programs before they start, without being too intrusive.  It seems to also have decent control about setting application permissions when needed.

Luckily(?) I don't have much customization in place.  LISP basic junk is about it.  I've been focusing on developing Autocad items more lately.  Tool Palettes, setting up libraries for using Design Center, etc.

[pmvliet]

The only real problem i have had with 64bit on my laptop is the fact that not all object enablers will load properly. This would only pertain to if you had to load object enablers for any other "consultants" vertical type programs. I got autocad to see the enabler, but have not dug into Navisworks to get it to read. I tried to install 32bit Navis, but it won't install on this machine. I got Auotcad 2k7 to install and run in x86 mode...

**shrug**

Pieter

other issue is no windows 7 driver for my HP 4mv 11x17 laser that I took to the jobsite =(

[dgorsman]

CADWorx may experience difficulties with the Live Database feature under 64 bit (check their forum, its been mentioned a time or three), as it uses Access.

If you are working off a network, that 10K RPM hard drive may be a bit of overkill, unless you are using a Vault-type system to check out drawings to your local drive.

If you go with 64 bit OS, start out with 6 GB of RAM, with an eye towards 12 GB.

I don't think your needs warrant a Xeon.  Look into decent i7s, as I don't think you will see much difference in performance for less cost.

And we have had nothing but good service from Dell.  *shrug* Maybe its a local thing.

[JCTER]

We've never had a problem with Dell.  Now that we're getting a build that's not a 'consumer' computer, and actually getting good parts, I feel we'll have a much better product.  Before now, we've used a bunch of Dimension desktops that are 'home PCs' for the most part, and not made for workstation use, imo.

The 10k RPM came over concerns of swap file read/write speed, iirc.  The max memory on this computer is going to be 12gb iirc.  It's coming in with 4gb, so I'll see how that goes, and it shouldn't be a problem to get another stick or two popped in as time goes on and needs dictate.

The processor was not of my choosing.  The boss's laptop is getting an i7, the Xeon was spec'd out by the IT guru after I gave him the Autocad spec req'ments and had a brief conversation about how Autocad uses the hardware, where bottlenecks can occur, etc.

Overall, I think it's a $1700 desktop, including a 21.5" widescreen monitor... told him not to include the monitor, since we have enough, but the boss said it's fine, and he might take the 21.5" to replace his 17" standard.  I told him I'll gladly take his 17" to augment my current one, since my vid card supports up to 3 monitors  :kewl:

[sinc]

The 10k RPM came over concerns of swap file read/write speed, iirc.  The max memory on this computer is going to be 12gb iirc.  It's coming in with 4gb, so I'll see how that goes, and it shouldn't be a problem to get another stick or two popped in as time goes on and needs dictate.

If you're worried about swap speed, you're likely better off approaching that by simply sticking 12GB of RAM in there, so that you rarely (if ever) care about swap speed.  RAM is really cheap.

However, I still recommend a fast primary hard drive, because it impacts almost everything you do.

Also, keep in mind that it's better to keep matched sets of RAM.  Since it looks like you're going with a tri-channel chip, you'd ideally want to put in matched sets of 2GB chips, meaning you'd want either 6GB (3x2GB, leaving 3 free slots in most MOBOs for future expansion) or 12GB (6x2GB) of tri-channel RAM.

[JCTER]

Gotcha on the RAM matching.  What's the purpose of that?

Also, re: HD speeds: a lot of motivation for going with 10k speed was simply "because" lol.  It just seemed to make sense to up the performance of one of the most oft used parts.  I was given an opportunity to send out requirements to our consultant based on what I thought I needed, so I took the opportunity to add a few bells and whistles based on memory of reading CAD topics and forums like this one.  I may have conflicted myself in spec'ing out 64-bit and also a 10k rpm drive though, as the higher speed is a bandaid for a problem on 32-bit systems.  Oh well.

[ronjonp]

I'd go SSD over the 10k drive 

[JCTER]

I'd go SSD over the 10k drive 

I still tried to balance my desires against my company budget 

[dgorsman]

I'd go SSD over the 10k drive 

I'd go with a SATA III drive (slightly cheaper than the 10k drive), but given suitable funds I would go with a dual SSD/SATA III set-up.  Fast and quiet for the critical operations and still pretty fast for the data and less-critical programs.

[ronjonp]

I'd go SSD over the 10k drive 

I still tried to balance my desires against my company budget 

That 10k drive is probably close to the same price:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820250001

[JCTER]

I'd go SSD over the 10k drive 

I still tried to balance my desires against my company budget 

That 10k drive is probably close to the same price:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820250001

Nah, he said the SSD upgrades were a bunch more.  The 10k drive isn't that much more.  /shrug

[sinc]

Gotcha on the RAM matching.  What's the purpose of that?

Each channel of RAM can be accessed simultaneously, increasing throughput.  It's much the same idea as putting multiple disk drives in a RAID0.

I may have conflicted myself in spec'ing out 64-bit and also a 10k rpm drive though, as the higher speed is a bandaid for a problem on 32-bit systems.  Oh well.

No, no conflict.  I highly recommend getting the fastest possible hard drive you can reasonably afford for your primary drive.  For a huge number (probably the majority) of common tasks, the speed of access to your primary drive has an impact.  So a fast primary drive can be one of the most significant factors in your perceived system performance.

SSD's are great, with the best performance, but a bit pricey still.  Velociraptors are pretty popular right now.  But the new SATA 6Gb/s stuff is coming on strong, as well.

As for the SSD + SATA 6GB/s combo:  You don't really need a fast data drive if you are using a server, only if you are storing data locally on your computer.  For most companies, all the data pretty much stays on a server, so a data drive on a workstation is rather unnecessary.  It depends on your needs.  But the SSD/SATA combo can work well if you need a local data drive.

And as a technical point, the SATA consortium is trying to keep people from using the term "SATA III".  The main problem is that it is too easy to confuse "SATA III" with "SATA 3Gb/s", aka "SATA II".  So they're trying to get everyone to use the term "SATA 6Gb/s" instead of "SATA III".

[ronjonp]

I'd go SSD over the 10k drive  

I still tried to balance my desires against my company budget  

That 10k drive is probably close to the same price:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820250001

Nah, he said the SSD upgrades were a bunch more.  The 10k drive isn't that much more.  /shrug

He must be going with what Dell offers then. I just order the computer, install the SSD and reload the OS. Dell still tends to put a bunch o crapware so a fresh install is nice.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822136296  looks like the same price 

[JCTER]

@sinc:  Your explanation of a dual-drive setup with SATA and SSD were pretty much exactly what our IT guy offered to us.  He asked me if I'd like an SSD so that we could 'check out' or copy drawings from the server to our local drive and possibly improve things that way.  I told him that's not a good idea for us, as we -really- need to know when someone else -is- working on it.  If we think about it later, maybe we'll get some document management software and go with a 'check out' system, but right now there's nothing wrong, so I'm not going to fix a problem that doesn't exist.

@ronjonp:  You might be right, there might not be a low-priced 10k drive out there, which can beat a low-priced SSD... however, it's kinda moot at this point.  I'd be surprised if the $/GB is on the level, now, but that's cool if it is.  I might look into that when I get around to upgrading my home theater computer and home PC backup stuff.

[JCTER]

Well this machine has been a hot rod compared to anything I've ever run before.

I've been monitoring RAM usage during my more taxing typical operations, and out of the 4gb RAM, I'm seeing usage ranging from 3.5-3.9gb with 3.25-3.75 by Autocad.exe alone!  Once a 64-bit OS allows it to use more RAM it really does hog that stuff up.

Mentioned my findings to the boss, and even though I feel silly asking him for more RAM right after he just gave me a computer with twice my old computer's RAM, I feel it's necessary if I'm to continue working at my accelerated rate and improved functionality.

This is really awesome.  Glad RAM is so comparatively cheap.  Boss was being his normal plain spoken skeptical self while talking about it, and then when I gave him an estimate of RAM being like $20-$25 per 1GB stick, he replies "$#!+ I can get you that, no problem man.  I'll shoot an email to <IT guy> in a minute"

lol  that was easy...

[Bob Garner]

James,

Are you using the flash drives in the "Enhanced for Ready Boost" mode?  (I'm still lernin' this stuff.)

[JCTER]

James,

Are you using the flash drives in the "Enhanced for Ready Boost" mode?  (I'm still lernin' this stuff.)

Got no flash drives on this beast.  It's got good old fashioned detroit iron RAM and spinnin Hard Drive.  None of that turbocharged rice burner stuff.

...if that answers your question lol.