Topic: AutoCAD tool pallettes... why don't you use them?

[gmyroup]

I did a poll a while ago on how users executed most of their commands and found only a small (5%) percentage of the respondents used tool pallettes as their main means of command execution.

My question is... why are pallettes so unpopular?

Your input is greatly appreciated.

Thanks

Jerry Myroup

[JCTER]

Probably because Tool Pallets are not set up OOTB for command usage, for the most part.  Sure there are -some- command sets on the tool pallets, but not really as a main interface.

Plus, whether you use the Ribbon or Toolbars or Keyboard, these options all have one thing in common... you don't have to click around to find the command you want to use, most of the time, for routine usage.  The Ribbon being the worst of the three of these still has -contextual- tabs that pop up which serve the purpose of putting the commands you will most likely need, in yo' face, right when you'd want them.

Toolbars are always there, so require no "page flipping" to get to them like pallets do.

Pallets are also extremely... and I mean -extremely- inefficient at using screen real estate.  Look at the square pixellage real estate that one command would take up on a pallet and compare that to an icon.

I will leave the advantage of keyboarding out since this is likely a GUI-focused topic.

[sinc]

Palettes are nice for certain commands and functionality.

I could not imagine trying to use them as the "main means of command execution", however...

The wording of your question seems to pre-suppose that we SHOULD want to use Palettes this way...  Why do you make that assumption?

[gmyroup]

I am very interested in the short comings of pallettes. I believe they can be a more productive tool.

I've been working on a pallette driven interface for AutoCAD (via an add-in) that will hopefully make using them more desireable. The main idea behind this add-in is to temporarily pop-up a pallette centered about the user's cursor location where the user can quickly pick the desired command and have the pallette automatically disappear. Which pallette is displayed is determined by the mouse action the user performs (i.e. click, double-click, delayed click, drag-right, drag-left, drag-up, drag-down, drag from an entity, drag to an entity, drag over entities).

[nivuahc]

I make extensive use of them in our office for standard symbols/tools/etc.

[JCTER]

I make extensive use of them in our office for standard symbols/tools/etc.

Block insertion is about the only thing I use them for.

[nivuahc]

I make extensive use of them in our office for standard symbols/tools/etc.

Block insertion is about the only thing I use them for.

When I write a small routine to help out in the office (like creating a particular multileader style and starting the mleader command on the appropriate layer) I add it to our standard tool palette, which is on our network, and everyone has it available. I use it for all of our standard blocks as well, but most of them get inserted via some routine or another so 99% of my palettes are Lisp commands

[dgorsman]

Using them for straight blocks is a little difficult, with different clients having different standards (even for layers, let alone source blocks) that would mean needing a set of palettes for each client.  Thats a lot of work for upkeep.  I do use them for command tools, and am migrating some of our shorter menus to palettes.  The *big* reason for not using palettes is buggered up palette group control.  That makes keeping users up-to-date with the newest palettes too difficult (I'm *not* writing a custom copy-local for this).

[sinc]

I've been working on a pallette driven interface for AutoCAD (via an add-in) that will hopefully make using them more desireable.

OK, that explains your interest in them.

Personally, I don't think I would have much of an interest in that sort of thing, although I admit it's a bit hard to say without actually trying it.

But Autocad has attempted to do something a little bit like that, with its "Quick Properties" palette.  I quickly disabled the thing, because it gets in the way, and is all-around really annoying.  Although I've heard it's possible to lock it into a specific position, rather than let it follow the cursor, and some people actually seem to like the Quick Properties palette in that configuration.  So I've been thinking of playing with it a bit in that mode, to see if I like it.  But the palette that automatically opened next to the cursor location quickly drove me batty.

[alanjt]

But the palette that automatically opened next to the cursor location quickly drove me batty.

I really liked the idea of the Quick Palette, but with the everything becoming more grip oriented, it just became annoying. I also wasn't a fan of the initial load time. When in a really big project, I actually had it crash Autocad.

[TimSpangler]

I use quick menus now for things like text, dims.  I use 3 letter command calls to replace the right click menu with my quick menu.  The tool palette idea may not be so bad

[sinc]

I think I could possibly get into it if the palette appeared next to cursor in response to a very specific mouse gesture.  It's the palette that automatically pops open next to the cursor that bugs me.  But I could see getting used to a palette that "behaved better", if you catch my drift...

Sill, possibly not as the primary method of command entry in general, but I could imagine that being a handy way to invoke/control certain commands...  Basically, it would be much like the current right-click menu, but with the extra capabilities and possibilities of a palette...

[LE3]

I never have been a fan of these items... but can say that if you use MEP(2010 or 2009) basically all it is available via palette (maybe because I am not an user, but required to use the program to test my apps).

I still get requirements of making COM wrappers to have access to the properties palette or new objects... and users like them, since we put a lot of features in them and they can manipulate the objects easier.

my 0.02 cts.

[rkmcswain]

We use them, mostly for entity construction on predefined layers, etc. Unfortunately, Tool Palettes are one of those half-baked features that was released, bragged on for a year, and then forgotten for the most part.

There is still.... no easy way to create and share TP groups among a group of users. If you create a TP from a drawing full of blocks, and then add or remove blocks from that drawing, the TP does not update (like Design Center does). There is no way to ensure the order of items in the palette without editing the XML file, etc. etc. How do you share a set of tool palettes among dozens of users and ensure that one of them doesn't add/delete/change tools?

[JCTER]

^That's why a customized Ribbon tab is nice.  Partial CUI file, ftw.  However... it's a pain in the BUUUTTTTTTTTT to initially set up, and requires a lot of tedious repetitious work.  Once done, though, it's pretty sweet.

[rkmcswain]

However... it's a pain in the BUUUTTTTTTTTT to initially set up, and requires a lot of tedious repetitious work.

What is? The partial CUI file?

[JCTER]

However... it's a pain in the BUUUTTTTTTTTT to initially set up, and requires a lot of tedious repetitious work.

What is? The partial CUI file?

Nah, ribbon customizations in general... if you were to use it to set "entity construction on predefined layers, etc." or as a block library index that does your insertions for you on the right layer, to the right scale, etc etc....

[huiz]

ToolPalettes were designed to be a personal tool for users. I think a lot of people forget that, because I hear everyone complain that palettes can't be shared or placed on a network...

At our office some use palettes, some don't. I use it for commands and variables, with switches. Like if a variable is on, set it off, and vv. Or to unload or detach all xref's. Or to hide all construction lines at once. Simple tools which do the trick in one click instead of 5 or 6 steps.

I like palettes, only it takes too long to open and close, or switch between one and another, and we get more and more palettes every year. So I hope it will not block us from using them.

I also like the Ribbons, especially the context sensitive in Civil3D. All the tools available with one click on an object!

[nivuahc]

How do you share a set of tool palettes among dozens of users and ensure that one of them doesn't add/delete/change tools?

Change the Tool Palettes File Locations (under Options) to a folder on your network that only you have Write access to but the rest of the CAD users have Read access to.

That, and make whatever changes you want to the basic setup of CAD, export it as a Profile, load that profile on the other users machines.

Add /p YourProfileName at the end of the launch command in your shortcut for AutoCAD. My shortcut Target now reads

"C:\Program Files\Autodesk\Acade 2010\acad.exe" /nologo /p MyProfileName

(the /nologo bit just skips the AutoCAD splash screen).

Pretty simple, actually.

[alanjt]

I use ToolPalettes for blocks and random mleader styles and a regular pulldown (partial .cui loaded) for misc. useful programs/routines.

[dgorsman]

How do you share a set of tool palettes among dozens of users and ensure that one of them doesn't add/delete/change tools?

Change the Tool Palettes File Locations (under Options) to a folder on your network that only you have Write access to but the rest of the CAD users have Read access to.

That, and make whatever changes you want to the basic setup of CAD, export it as a Profile, load that profile on the other users machines.

Add /p YourProfileName at the end of the launch command in your shortcut for AutoCAD. My shortcut Target now reads

"C:\Program Files\Autodesk\Acade 2010\acad.exe" /nologo /p MyProfileName

(the /nologo bit just skips the AutoCAD splash screen).

Pretty simple, actually.

Given the poster, I believe the question was rhetorical.     The problem he is referring to is one of tool palette groups, where its possible for users to end up with obsolete palettes unless you create a copy-local automation.  That opens up the "network" palettes to user manipulation.

[alanjt]

How do you share a set of tool palettes among dozens of users and ensure that one of them doesn't add/delete/change tools?

Change the Tool Palettes File Locations (under Options) to a folder on your network that only you have Write access to but the rest of the CAD users have Read access to.

That, and make whatever changes you want to the basic setup of CAD, export it as a Profile, load that profile on the other users machines.

Add /p YourProfileName at the end of the launch command in your shortcut for AutoCAD. My shortcut Target now reads

"C:\Program Files\Autodesk\Acade 2010\acad.exe" /nologo /p MyProfileName

(the /nologo bit just skips the AutoCAD splash screen).

Pretty simple, actually.

Given the poster, I believe the question was rhetorical.     The problem he is referring to is one of tool palette groups, where its possible for users to end up with obsolete palettes unless you create a copy-local automation.  That opens up the "network" palettes to user manipulation.

I had IT remove permission to the ToolPalette folder from everyone but myself. They can still create custom palettes, but I've never seen anyone do it.

[rkmcswain]

Given the poster, I believe the question was rhetorical.    

Yes, it was. Sorry that wasn't more clear.

[rkmcswain]

ToolPalettes were designed to be a personal tool for users. I think a lot of people forget that, because I hear everyone complain that palettes can't be shared or placed on a network...

Hi. Are you on the AutoCAD design team, and is that an official statement? I hope not. 

How are tool palettes any different than any other UI element designed for executing commands? (Pull-down menus, toolbars, command line, screen menu, Ribbon, etc?)

In a corporate environment, there is usually someone (CAD Mgr?) charged with maintaining order and making sure that the production people have the tools needed to do their job. The CAD Mgr needs the ability to define and distribute these tools, regardless of the form of the UI element. Many times the end user doesn't even know certain tools exist, and whether or not the user chooses to use these tools is a different matter.

We have a company tool palette set consisting of about 12 tabs. Add this to the existing 50 or so TP tabs in Civil 3D, and you get a mess that users avoid because of the overload... So why shouldn't a CAD Mgr be able to define some TP groups and set one current and push this out to 100 users?

[huiz]

Hi. Are you on the AutoCAD design team, and is that an official statement? I hope not. 

I'm not connected to Autodesk I'm not sure what an official statement is about palettes, but as far as I understood fromNew Features Workshop when palettes were introduced, is that palettes are for a user what a palette is for a painter. Just a quick way to put some tools on it. And personal, since everybody is able to put his own stuff on it.


I am a CAD Manager and I won't push palettes to the users. They are personal. Tools and company things are provided by a Ribbon which is loaded at startup. There are a few things that is required. That is support path to server (which autostart a lisp for some company stuff), a partial CUI (adds one Ribbon) and a company template. For the rest it is to the users to change. Some like buttons, so they have button bars. Some like palettes, so they experient with palettes. Some wants pink background so let it be.

A few times a year I visit them at their desk and then I explain how to use palettes or Ribbons or commands or whatever. If they are interested I put some handy things on a ToolPalette. But company stuff I always provide via the Ribbon.

[mjfarrell]

I don't know that pushing it out to 100 users is an issue...
I imagine that by providing users with different profiles with path and file name variations might be easier to manage.

C:\Users\Prime\AppData\Roaming\Autodesk\C3D 2010\enu\Support\ToolPalette

The above being the default, it could be possible to reduce your tool palette payload by providing variations on the default, either by task, or project....

[alanjt]

One can always create ToolPalette groups. I created one for Proposed and one for Existing.

[rkmcswain]

but as far as I understood fromNew Features Workshop when palettes were introduced, is that palettes are for a user what a palette is for a painter. Just a quick way to put some tools on it. And personal, since everybody is able to put his own stuff on it.

You have not addressed the question... "How are Tool Palettes any different that other UI elements such as pull-down menus, toolbars, etc.?" How are those elements any less "personal"?

"Personal" stuff here is what you can change after the system loads, and part of our system loading is defining tool palettes so that all users have the same set of tools from which to select. There are certain things tool palette buttons can do that no other UI element can do, and we use that to our advantage.

I am a CAD Manager and I won't push palettes to the users. They are personal.

That is certainly your choice, but that doesn't mean others do not have this desire and/or need. I've been reading about it in newsgroups, forums, and on the web since 2004.

[rkmcswain]

I don't know that pushing it out to 100 users is an issue...
I imagine that by providing users with different profiles with path and file name variations might be easier to manage.

We simply need a way to display a subset of the 50 or more palettes in the system. The answer in our case is tool palette groups. Switching profiles is overkill since nothing else changes. The problem is the ease of creation, deployment and maintenance of these groups to multiple users.

[alanjt]

I don't know that pushing it out to 100 users is an issue...
I imagine that by providing users with different profiles with path and file name variations might be easier to manage.

We simply need a way to display a subset of the 50 or more palettes in the system. The answer in our case is tool palette groups. Switching profiles is overkill since nothing else changes. The problem is the ease of creation, deployment and maintenance of these groups to multiple users.

Even with all the automation I've put in place, I still have to walk around and make sure they import Tool Palette groups.

[huiz]

but as far as I understood fromNew Features Workshop when palettes were introduced, is that palettes are for a user what a palette is for a painter. Just a quick way to put some tools on it. And personal, since everybody is able to put his own stuff on it.

You have not addressed the question... "How are Tool Palettes any different that other UI elements such as pull-down menus, toolbars, etc.?" How are those elements any less "personal"?

"Personal" stuff here is what you can change after the system loads, and part of our system loading is defining tool palettes so that all users have the same set of tools from which to select. There are certain things tool palette buttons can do that no other UI element can do, and we use that to our advantage.

I am a CAD Manager and I won't push palettes to the users. They are personal.

That is certainly your choice, but that doesn't mean others do not have this desire and/or need. I've been reading about it in newsgroups, forums, and on the web since 2004.

Toolpalettes are empty containers and certainly provided as a place where you as user put your own stuff on it. Toolbars, menu's, etc are (where in the past) less editable and more static so I do see difference between them. Cad managers are able to edit menu's or ribbons and share them via the network. Toolpalettes have the nice property that people can easily fill and edit the palettes themselves and that confirms my meaning about palettes are for personal stuff.  But, it is my opinion, I know a lot of other people think different

[mjfarrell]

for the civil crowd; there remains the option of using Object Classification to drive some automation

[Draftek]

I've been deploying and using tool palettes since they were first introduced.
Love them. I have about 800+ users with no complaints.

Since they are an xml hierarchy system. You can easily create, edit and maintain with a simple text editor.

[alanjt]

I've been deploying and using tool palettes since they were first introduced.
Love them. I have about 800+ users with no complaints.

Since they are an xml hierarchy system. You can easily create, edit and maintain with a simple text editor.

The last company I worked for used them and when I changed jobs and introduced Tool Palettes where I am now, everybody went crazy for them.

[gmyroup]

Are the tool pallettes you are talking for standard Autocad commands or for presenting blocks to the user?

[alanjt]

I use them for blocks mostly.

[Serge J. Gianolla]

I like using them because you can add text onto them! When designing 2 to 4 year projects, contractors come and go [you take them up to speed by briefing, mentioning where the manual is...] but there is always some who claim not having time to read, or cannot find, the dog ate it...
Brief explanation/summary of use... on ToolPalette is in the user's face. No escaping, no BS, they cannot avoid seeing the "Help" when unfurling palettes.
On a server, there is only another guy and myself having rights to edit them.

[wwhittle]

Ive setup palettes for all of our standard blocks, and for some MEP systems.

Commands work well too, you can customize easily by dragging and dropping onto the palette.