Author Topic: Has anyone attended AU class CP104-1?  (Read 10721 times)

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csharpbird

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Has anyone attended AU class CP104-1?
« on: December 01, 2009, 07:46:55 PM »
CP104-1:Using .NET 4.0 with AutoCAD
Any information? :-D

vegbruiser

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Re: Has anyone attended AU class CP104-1?
« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2009, 11:24:20 AM »
Hi,

I'm pretty sure you can get the Class Materials here: -

http://au.autodesk.com/?nd=e_class&session_id=5164

I didn't attend the class though.

Kerry

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Re: Has anyone attended AU class CP104-1?
« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2009, 07:46:21 PM »

I read no further than this :
Quote
Reply Albert Szilvasy replied...
.NET 4.0, unlike previous version of the .NET framework, no longer rolls applications forward. AutoCAD will load and use the .NET 3.5 SP1 even when you have .NET 4.0 installed. This means that assemblies (.dlls) that you build against .NET 4.0 will not load. You can instruct AutoCAD to load the .NET 4.0 framework by adding the following to you acad.exe.config: Note however that AutoCAD 2010 will not start on .NET 4.0 Beta 2. There are some compatibility issues that we are working on.


VS2010 editor seemed quite good to use.
Assumption, not tested.
Perhaps the VS2010 editor could be used to build .NET 3.5 dlls ??


//==
csharpbird,
Was there any special reason you wanted to use .NET 4.0 ??

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Bobby C. Jones

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Re: Has anyone attended AU class CP104-1?
« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2009, 10:30:47 AM »
CP104-1:Using .NET 4.0 with AutoCAD
Any information? :-D

Yes.  Acad 2010 is not compatible with .net 4.0.  Since 4.0 is not yet released, it is unknown when acad will be compatible.

However, when the two do meet, there is some cool stuff possible with dynamic languages, like python and ruby.
Bobby C. Jones

Draftek

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Re: Has anyone attended AU class CP104-1?
« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2009, 01:02:14 PM »
Awesome class and I got some great ideas for future development.

David Hall

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Re: Has anyone attended AU class CP104-1?
« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2009, 01:16:12 PM »
Draftek, you were in the class?  I was in there as well
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Re: Has anyone attended AU class CP104-1?
« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2009, 03:28:37 PM »
Do you mean to tell me that I was sitting in a room with a bunch of fellow swampers and didn't know it?
Bobby C. Jones

JCTER

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Re: Has anyone attended AU class CP104-1?
« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2009, 03:39:05 PM »
Do you mean to tell me that I was sitting in a room with a bunch of fellow swampers and didn't know it?

This is why folks -do- need stinkin' badges!  :-D

Draftek

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Re: Has anyone attended AU class CP104-1?
« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2009, 04:29:47 PM »
Draftek, you were in the class?  I was in there as well

Drats! I was in the back on the right side, isle seat.
Kaki hat, carrying a Head Racquetball backpack - red, white and black.

I think that's the class I lost my cell phone in....

I did see Mr. Jones.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2009, 04:34:06 PM by Draftek »

David Hall

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Re: Has anyone attended AU class CP104-1?
« Reply #9 on: December 08, 2009, 05:12:58 PM »
I was on the row just ahead of the back row, 3rd seat to right of isle.  If you were on the same row, when you bailed, you left your orange juice there.
Everyone has a photographic memory, Some just don't have film.
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David Hall

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Re: Has anyone attended AU class CP104-1?
« Reply #10 on: December 08, 2009, 05:14:05 PM »
Do you mean to tell me that I was sitting in a room with a bunch of fellow swampers and didn't know it?
AZ told me that Draftek was in Vegas, bet we didn't have his cell number.  Bobby, you never PM'd Kate you would be there.
Everyone has a photographic memory, Some just don't have film.
They say money can't buy happiness, but it can buy Bacon and that's a close second.
Sometimes the question is more important than the answer. (Thanks Kerry for reminding me)

Draftek

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Re: Has anyone attended AU class CP104-1?
« Reply #11 on: December 08, 2009, 05:28:42 PM »
I was on the row just ahead of the back row, 3rd seat to right of isle.  If you were on the same row, when you bailed, you left your orange juice there.

hmm. I was probably just in front of you, I think about 3 rows from the back.
Did you see Mark Johnston on the left side? He caught me on the way out and we chatted for about 10 minutes after the class.

mohnston

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Re: Has anyone attended AU class CP104-1?
« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2009, 01:34:37 PM »
Guilty as charged. You guys should have put your Swamp names on your badges. I would have bought you beers at the exhibit opening! :) I had no idea I was in the presence of such greatness.

I lost some hair in that class. So much flying over my head!

There seemed to be a lot of talk about using other languages to drive AutoCAD. The DLR (Dynamic Language Runtime) was mentioned here and in Kean's class.
I came away with 2 main impressions.

1. We will have more choices in languages for programming AutoCAD.

2. These languages are simpler to write than C# or even VB.NET. They are more along the lines of scripting languages.

I have real problems with both of these conclusions.
I don't see how they help us all that much, if at all. In fact I could make a case that they hurt us as programmers.
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sinc

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Re: Has anyone attended AU class CP104-1?
« Reply #13 on: December 09, 2009, 04:48:08 PM »
It's tied in with the whole idea of "frameworks".

Basically, what's happened for a long time (since C became popular) is for people to have "class libraries".  This is where people would typically put all the common stuff - you know, the basic routines that people use all the time, and don't want to rewrite all the time.  Then the typical way to create an application was to start writing code that calls the routines in these "class libraries".

Along the way, it became apparent to some that we were still rewriting a lot of the same code over and over again.  So they got the idea to try and include EVERYTHING that we write all the time in a "framework".  As opposed to having a class library full of routines that get called by our application, we have a framework that contains all the common components of an application.  Then we only write the parts that are different from other applications.  We actually start an application by simply instantiating an "Application" class (or a subclass of an "Application" class).  Then this "Application" class has a bunch of hooks (i.e., events and delegates), which allow us to add our custom pieces.  Net result is we can build a better application faster.

In other words, instead of creating a bunch of custom code that makes a bunch of calls to a "Class Library", we have a framework that makes a bunch of calls to our custom code.  In many respects, it's the mirror-image approach to what we did in C.

When we start looking at things this way, then most of the time, all we need to do is specify little pieces of high-level logic.  Everything else is done by the framework.  So we actually aren't losing anything as programmers.  By contrast, we're gaining, and we can concentrate only on the important logic of our application.  All of (or at least most of) the "grungy details" are taken care of in the framework.

Now of course, not EVERYTHING can be done via a high-level approach.  So we might still find ourselves breaking out chunks for implementation in some lower-level language, such as C++ or (in very rare cases) even Assembly.   But for most application programming, this approach yields FAR better results, FAR quicker, than attempting to do everything via a low-level approach.

Bobby C. Jones

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Re: Has anyone attended AU class CP104-1?
« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2009, 04:50:11 PM »
Guilty as charged. You guys should have put your Swamp names on your badges. I would have bought you beers at the exhibit opening! :) I had no idea I was in the presence of such greatness.

I lost some hair in that class. So much flying over my head!

There seemed to be a lot of talk about using other languages to drive AutoCAD. The DLR (Dynamic Language Runtime) was mentioned here and in Kean's class.
I came away with 2 main impressions.

1. We will have more choices in languages for programming AutoCAD.

2. These languages are simpler to write than C# or even VB.NET. They are more along the lines of scripting languages.

I have real problems with both of these conclusions.
I don't see how they help us all that much, if at all. In fact I could make a case that they hurt us as programmers.

I agree, as a programmer I don't see myself writing an app of any size with a dynamic language, however, as a cad manager I would LOVE to bang out some simple scripts in something more modern than autolisp.  I'm also sure that these thoughts are debatable, and debatable by some programmers here in the swamp!
Bobby C. Jones

JCTER

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Re: Has anyone attended AU class CP104-1?
« Reply #15 on: December 09, 2009, 04:52:38 PM »
If their "more user friendly" modern scripting methods are something along the lines of the macro recorder, I think your job security will be AYYYYYYYY OKAAAY.

Bobby C. Jones

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Re: Has anyone attended AU class CP104-1?
« Reply #16 on: December 09, 2009, 05:03:30 PM »
If their "more user friendly" modern scripting methods are something along the lines of the macro recorder, I think your job security will be AYYYYYYYY OKAAAY.

:)  Not autodesk's scripting languages; they're talking about allowing scripting with any language that runs on the DLR, like IronPython and IronRuby.
Bobby C. Jones

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Re: Has anyone attended AU class CP104-1?
« Reply #17 on: December 09, 2009, 05:11:23 PM »
If their "more user friendly" modern scripting methods are something along the lines of the macro recorder, I think your job security will be AYYYYYYYY OKAAAY.

:)  Not autodesk's scripting languages; they're talking about allowing scripting with any language that runs on the DLR, like IronPython and IronRuby.

Ah, I thought one of the generic thoughts about using 'easier' language support was to allow for something else.  Nevermind.  It's good news for guys like me, though, who could never justify hiring a programmer, but could get approval to spend time doing my own customization.  It gives me more power, and doesn't take anything away from y'all's economy.

mohnston

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Re: Has anyone attended AU class CP104-1?
« Reply #18 on: December 09, 2009, 06:17:08 PM »
I liked this idea better when it was called "VBA".

It seems like "they" (whoever they are) took VBA away (don't kid yourself it's going away) because it wasn't deep enough, it didn't give enough control.

Let's get in our time machine and go back 5 years:
We AutoCAD programmers were told "You need to make the change to this new .NET code. Pick your poison. VB.NET or C#.NET. We're not going to lie, it's going to sting a bit. But in the long run you'll be glad you learned all about DocumentLocks and Transactions and ResultBuffers and Delegates and Interfaces and PolymorphineInjections . . ."

Fast forward to today:
"These languages are too complicated. They take too many lines of code and they aren't very easy to read so here's what we're going to do for you. We're going to let you write code that is simpler, more logical without all the complexity. Look how great it is to write simple code to get your work done! . . . You are welcome!"

So we have C++, C#, VB.NET, F#, IronPython, IronRuby, Boo (I'm not making that last one up) and who knows what else.

With all these new choices in programming languages will support be easier or harder to get?
Will examples be more plentiful or more scarce?
Will you really be able to produce better tools quicker or will you be spending your time learning new languages?
By the way what help will developers get when it comes to debugging these new languages? Remember the help AutoLISP gave you when it broke?

Prediction: In 3 years we will have VBA back. It won't be called VBA and it won't be built on the same platform as todays VBA. But it will be a relatively easy interface that let's the AutoCAD programmer create quick, friendly, powerful programs without the overhead of Visual Studio.

And we will have to learn a new language to use it.


It's tied in with the whole idea of "frameworks".

Basically, what's happened for a long time (since C became popular) is for people to have "class libraries".  This is where people would typically put all the common stuff - you know, the basic routines that people use all the time, and don't want to rewrite all the time.  Then the typical way to create an application was to start writing code that calls the routines in these "class libraries".

Along the way, it became apparent to some that we were still rewriting a lot of the same code over and over again.  So they got the idea to try and include EVERYTHING that we write all the time in a "framework".  As opposed to having a class library full of routines that get called by our application, we have a framework that contains all the common components of an application.  Then we only write the parts that are different from other applications.  We actually start an application by simply instantiating an "Application" class (or a subclass of an "Application" class).  Then this "Application" class has a bunch of hooks (i.e., events and delegates), which allow us to add our custom pieces.  Net result is we can build a better application faster.

In other words, instead of creating a bunch of custom code that makes a bunch of calls to a "Class Library", we have a framework that makes a bunch of calls to our custom code.  In many respects, it's the mirror-image approach to what we did in C.

When we start looking at things this way, then most of the time, all we need to do is specify little pieces of high-level logic.  Everything else is done by the framework.  So we actually aren't losing anything as programmers.  By contrast, we're gaining, and we can concentrate only on the important logic of our application.  All of (or at least most of) the "grungy details" are taken care of in the framework.

Now of course, not EVERYTHING can be done via a high-level approach.  So we might still find ourselves breaking out chunks for implementation in some lower-level language, such as C++ or (in very rare cases) even Assembly.   But for most application programming, this approach yields FAR better results, FAR quicker, than attempting to do everything via a low-level approach.
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Re: Has anyone attended AU class CP104-1?
« Reply #19 on: December 09, 2009, 06:27:01 PM »
Quote
PolymorphineInjections

 :lmao:

Kerry

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Re: Has anyone attended AU class CP104-1?
« Reply #20 on: December 09, 2009, 06:28:56 PM »
< .. >
But it will be a relatively easy interface that let's the AutoCAD programmer create quick, friendly, powerful programs without the overhead of Visual Studio.


 :angel:

Yep. Visual Lisp 

:lol:
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dgorsman

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Re: Has anyone attended AU class CP104-1?
« Reply #21 on: December 09, 2009, 07:09:27 PM »
< .. >
But it will be a relatively easy interface that let's the AutoCAD programmer create quick, friendly, powerful programs without the overhead of Visual Studio.


 :angel:

Yep. Visual Lisp 

:lol:

Hah!  After the dental appointment today, I needed that.

There is a great need for something that can do "more" than LISP but is faster and easier for CAD Admins to work with than C#/VB.  As long as it doesn't turn out like the action recorder, I'm all for it.
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Arizona

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Re: Has anyone attended AU class CP104-1?
« Reply #22 on: December 10, 2009, 06:50:08 AM »
Do you mean to tell me that I was sitting in a room with a bunch of fellow swampers and didn't know it?
Yes :-)

Side question: If you already had programs in VBA and was going to move these forward, as well as consider future programs, would you upgrade what you have to VB.net and continue writing in VB.net or would you move toward C#?
Which one do you see as having some longevity over the other?

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Re: Has anyone attended AU class CP104-1?
« Reply #23 on: December 10, 2009, 07:14:11 AM »

I'm prejudiced 'cause I dislike VB ...

BUT,

I don't think it matters ..  whichever you feel comfortable with. Just keep in mind that the differences between vb/vba and vb.NET are sufficient to cause a little confusion for anyone not prepared to put in the work required to learn.

also ... Microsoft have committed to develop both languages simultaneously IE: any new features will go into BOTH languages unlike the prior situation where each languages features depended in some part on the team that was working on it.

I believe code samples available in c# are currently 'better' than vb.net ... this is in part due to 'translations' from vba.

 
//--
added: one of the things I like about c# is that the formatting and structure using braces for code blocks lets me breathe when reading code ... with vb I can't visually breathe 'cause my eyes can't find a place to pause and assimilate what I've read. This is important to me 'cause more time is spent reading code that writing it.

In good faith
Kerry
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SomeCallMeDave

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Re: Has anyone attended AU class CP104-1?
« Reply #24 on: December 10, 2009, 08:07:03 AM »
.... as a cad manager I would LOVE to bang out some simple scripts in something more modern than autolisp. .....

I thought the same thing.  I have done a bit of work with IronRuby,  writing some helpers and wrappers for the AutoCAD .Net API and I love it. 


If anyone is interested, you can take a look at my github account http://github.com/davidbl/acadhelper\ for the code (see the wiki pages) and my blog http://blog.davidkblackmon.com/  for some more examples.

Using Ruby, an AutoCAD developer has access to a huge library of code via RubyGems.  Just about anything you that you might need is already available as a gem.   Plus Ruby gives an easy way to connect web applications to AutoCAD using Rails/ActiveRecord. (I sure it would be similar for Python too)




David Hall

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Re: Has anyone attended AU class CP104-1?
« Reply #25 on: December 10, 2009, 10:42:38 AM »
I agree with Kerry on the reading/pausing.  I hadn't thought of it like that, but seeing segments is definitely easier
Everyone has a photographic memory, Some just don't have film.
They say money can't buy happiness, but it can buy Bacon and that's a close second.
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Arizona

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Re: Has anyone attended AU class CP104-1?
« Reply #26 on: December 10, 2009, 01:05:00 PM »
Thanks for the feedback!
I'm sure I'll be asking lots of questions once I get past the stupid questions stage  :-)

mohnston

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Re: Has anyone attended AU class CP104-1?
« Reply #27 on: December 10, 2009, 01:31:34 PM »
< .. >
But it will be a relatively easy interface that let's the AutoCAD programmer create quick, friendly, powerful programs without the overhead of Visual Studio.


 :angel:

Yep. Visual Lisp 

:lol:
You have a sick sense of humor.  :ugly:
It's amazing what you can do when you don't know what you can't do.
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Re: Has anyone attended AU class CP104-1?
« Reply #28 on: December 10, 2009, 06:07:30 PM »
It's the API, not the language. If your needing to bang out a quick app in C#, you can always use the ActiveX API.
If you don't want to party with transactions, BlockTableRecords...etc then don't

Code: [Select]
[CommandMethod("doit")]
  static public void doit()
  {
   AcadApplication app = AcAp.Application.AcadApplication as AcadApplication;
   app.ActiveDocument.ModelSpace.AddLine(new Point3d(0,0,0).ToArray(),
                                         new Point3d(10,10,0).ToArray());
  }

Easy as VB  :lol:

MickD

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Re: Has anyone attended AU class CP104-1?
« Reply #29 on: December 10, 2009, 06:30:33 PM »

With all these new choices in programming languages will support be easier or harder to get?
Will examples be more plentiful or more scarce?
Will you really be able to produce better tools quicker or will you be spending your time learning new languages?
By the way what help will developers get when it comes to debugging these new languages? Remember the help AutoLISP gave you when it broke?


Support etc. won't be as bad as you might think, all these new scripting type languages target the DLR, this means you can call iron ruby with vb.net or whatever, it's basically like one language with many syntaxes/styles of coding if you like.

Personally I think IronPython would be the easiest to learn and use and would be very quick to build app's with with IronRuby a close second but everyone is different so pick your poison, it all runs in the same engine.

If you could debug ironpython using VS in acad I would very rarely write code in another language again, it's that easy to read and use.
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mohnston

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Re: Has anyone attended AU class CP104-1?
« Reply #30 on: December 10, 2009, 07:33:34 PM »
. . .
Personally I think IronPython would be the easiest to learn and use and would be very quick to build app's with with IronRuby a close second but everyone is different so pick your poison, it all runs in the same engine.

If you could debug ironpython using VS in acad I would very rarely write code in another language again, it's that easy to read and use.
You probably already saw this then http://through-the-interface.typepad.com/through_the_interface/2009/12/command-line-scripting-of-ironpython-code-in-autocad.html
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Re: Has anyone attended AU class CP104-1?
« Reply #31 on: December 10, 2009, 08:07:34 PM »
Yep, I also wrote a very simple script engine dll here -> http://www.theswamp.org/index.php?topic=28675.0

This topic has got me thinking again and I have been having a look at BOO, so far it's very impressive and can be netloaded straight into acad like any other dll without the need for loading the scripting engine. Complete with form designer etc it's not a bad choice for development. Your dll's can be imported into other .net assemblies also as you would expect.
Debugging is a bit buggy though but it may be just me :)

Here's Kean's post on BOO if anyone is interested -> http://through-the-interface.typepad.com/through_the_interface/2009/05/using-boo-with-autocad.html
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Bobby C. Jones

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Re: Has anyone attended AU class CP104-1?
« Reply #32 on: December 11, 2009, 01:14:34 PM »
.... as a cad manager I would LOVE to bang out some simple scripts in something more modern than autolisp. .....

I thought the same thing.  I have done a bit of work with IronRuby,  writing some helpers and wrappers for the AutoCAD .Net API and I love it. 


If anyone is interested, you can take a look at my github account http://github.com/davidbl/acadhelper\ for the code (see the wiki pages) and my blog http://blog.davidkblackmon.com/  for some more examples.

Using Ruby, an AutoCAD developer has access to a huge library of code via RubyGems.  Just about anything you that you might need is already available as a gem.   Plus Ruby gives an easy way to connect web applications to AutoCAD using Rails/ActiveRecord. (I sure it would be similar for Python too)

Hey David,
Kean gave TIRADE a spot in his class.  Cool stuff.  I was dead set on learning python until I saw that, now I have a decision to make; thanks a lot :)
Bobby C. Jones

Ken Alexander

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Re: Has anyone attended AU class CP104-1?
« Reply #33 on: December 11, 2009, 07:45:20 PM »
I agree with Kerry on the reading/pausing.  I hadn't thought of it like that, but seeing segments is definitely easier

It’s funny, I was going through some sample C# code and I felt the complete opposite.  I wished that the segments were as easy to follow as VB.NET.  I wanted to find the “End IF”, “End While”, etc….  Then I was looking through another example written in C# and found it to be very easy to follow.  I realized that it had nothing to do with the braces or “End…” statements; it was how well the code was written.  The first sample had long, run-on methods and the second had very distinct, short, functional methods. It seems to me that how well the code is written will determine the ease of reading more so than the language that it is written in.  Just my two cents to defend VB.NET
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Re: Has anyone attended AU class CP104-1?
« Reply #34 on: December 11, 2009, 10:34:03 PM »
I agree with Kerry on the reading/pausing.  I hadn't thought of it like that, but seeing segments is definitely easier

It’s funny, I was going through some sample C# code and I felt the complete opposite.  I wished that the segments were as easy to follow as VB.NET.  I wanted to find the “End IF”, “End While”, etc….  Then I was looking through another example written in C# and found it to be very easy to follow.  I realized that it had nothing to do with the braces or “End…” statements; it was how well the code was written.  The first sample had long, run-on methods and the second had very distinct, short, functional methods. It seems to me that how well the code is written will determine the ease of reading more so than the language that it is written in.  Just my two cents to defend VB.NET

Surprising, you would think a programmer of your stature would have made the switch to the more superior language, C#..   :lol: .. just kidding

Hey do you know Jesse at MV, if you do tell him Daniel said Hi!  :-)

SomeCallMeDave

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Re: Has anyone attended AU class CP104-1?
« Reply #35 on: December 13, 2009, 09:20:38 AM »
Hey David,
Kean gave TIRADE a spot in his class.  Cool stuff.  I was dead set on learning python until I saw that, now I have a decision to make; thanks a lot :)

Bobby,

Cool. Kean and I had been corresponding a bit, but I didn't know he was going to mention TIRADE.

Work on TIRADE has taken a bit of a backseat lately, but I hope to be back to it soon.

Would you be interested in being a beta tester?

If anyone else is interested in testing it,  drop me a PM.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2009, 09:57:32 AM by David Blackmon »

Ken Alexander

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  • Posts: 61
Re: Has anyone attended AU class CP104-1?
« Reply #36 on: December 14, 2009, 11:52:49 AM »
Quote
switch to the more superior language, C#..

Maybe not switch, but use both, yes.  Superior???? TBD. :|

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Hey do you know Jesse at MV, if you do tell him Daniel said Hi!  :-)

I will tell him.
Ken Alexander

Bobby C. Jones

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Re: Has anyone attended AU class CP104-1?
« Reply #37 on: December 14, 2009, 02:14:47 PM »
Would you be interested in being a beta tester?

If anyone else is interested in testing it,  drop me a PM.

I'm going to give both IR & IP a whirl to see which one hits my spot.  I'd be happy to use TIRADE in my IR learning.  I'll drop you a PM.  Thanks David.
Bobby C. Jones