Author Topic: Paper Space Vs Model Space  (Read 24311 times)

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dubb

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Paper Space Vs Model Space
« on: October 28, 2004, 02:30:21 PM »
I know that this has had been an issue in another post but nobody added to my comment after I had posted. Now I have reached critical decision..."Paper or Model" either one is good to use to a certain extent. I need to convince 3 people who depend on PS to use MS more frequently. Does anybody here work with Grading plans and most civil type engineering applications? I would like to hear from you. Depending on this topic and the vote poll I will incorporate your ideas and suggestions in to my next meeting. In fact I print these discussions out and show them.

ELOQUINTET

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Paper Space Vs Model Space
« Reply #1 on: October 28, 2004, 02:50:17 PM »
you show these discussions oh my that's dangerous. we use model for drawing and paper for printing period

Mark

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Paper Space Vs Model Space
« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2004, 02:57:26 PM »
I don't do grading plans, or at least not yet, but I do work in the civil field. Boudary work get's 80% of my attention. All work is plotted in paperspace.
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Dommy2Hotty

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Paper Space Vs Model Space
« Reply #3 on: October 28, 2004, 03:01:39 PM »
Always model

whdjr

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Paper Space Vs Model Space
« Reply #4 on: October 28, 2004, 03:11:47 PM »
We draw eveything fullsize in model space and use paperspace for plotting.  The only thing in paperspace is the titleblock info, viewports and some small misc details that are xref'ed onto a layout tab (to scale) so as not to have to use a viewport (you know too many viewports equals too long waiting for regenerations).

ELOQUINTET

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« Reply #5 on: October 28, 2004, 03:24:05 PM »
i think the majority of people use model for drawing and paper for plotting. i'm not going to get into what is the correct way but i have always seen doing everything in model to be somewhat archaic. Make the computer work for you not vice versa that's what i say  :wink: no hate mail please  :P

Jassper

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Paper Space Vs Model Space
« Reply #6 on: October 28, 2004, 03:34:15 PM »
Why don't you list the type of things you want in Paperspace and Have people say yea or nay to them.

When you talk about grading plans - can you be more specific?

The existing topo is a different drawing than the new topo. and they are xref'd into eachother. Each portion of the new topo Water/Sewer/ New grading / Pavement / even Demolition are all different tabs.

Anything you need to see for the site has to go into Model. Anything that is superfluous goes in PS.

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Bob Garner

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Paper Space Vs Model Space
« Reply #7 on: October 28, 2004, 04:02:57 PM »
When I do civil plans and have to include details at a different scale, say a site plan at 1" = 20' and several drainage ditch details at 1" = 1', paper space makes it easy to place differently scaled items on a single sheet.  You could X-ref them too, but then you have to re-scale the linetype scales so they X-ref at the correct scale and your dotted lines don't all look like solid lines.  And our files here get juggled around so much, you never know if the X-ref files are where you think they are.

I try to keep my work simple enough that model space is enough, but combining scales on a sheet calls for paper space.

(I'm an injunere and even I could figgur out paper space so don't let that slow you down.)

Bobber

Bob Garner

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Paper Space Vs Model Space
« Reply #8 on: October 28, 2004, 04:07:12 PM »
p.s. dubb,

Where you at and what are you doing here in San D.?

I'm with Moffatt & Nichol - mostly structural engineering.

B.

Dent Cermak

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Paper Space Vs Model Space
« Reply #9 on: October 28, 2004, 04:53:34 PM »
Paper space was designed as a plotting tool. I don't think AutoDesk was far sighted enough to see it as a drawing tool. The "experts" on their web site discourage drawing in paper space.
I can see the advantage of 2 view ports for plan/profile sheets, but you really have to watch the set up and make sure you have the right plannimetric data with the right profile. You can get one port behind and really mess up a job. DOH!!

whdjr

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Paper Space Vs Model Space
« Reply #10 on: October 28, 2004, 05:42:34 PM »
Quote from: Dent Cermak
plannimetric

Uh oh!?!  He's using big words again.

dubb

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Paper Space Vs Model Space
« Reply #11 on: October 28, 2004, 05:54:52 PM »
Quote
Where you at and what are you doing here in San D.?


I work in valley center at a civil engineering firm called "Wynn Engineering" i previously worked at "Hope Engineering" and i live in S.D. for all my life and i been drafting for 5 yrs as a graduate from ITT.



Quote

When I do civil plans and have to include details at a different scale, say a site plan at 1" = 20' and several drainage ditch details at 1" = 1', paper space makes it easy to place differently scaled items on a single sheet. You could X-ref them too, but then you have to re-scale the linetype scales so they X-ref at the correct scale and your dotted lines don't all look like solid lines. And our files here get juggled around so much, you never know if the X-ref files are where you think they are.

I try to keep my work simple enough that model space is enough, but combining scales on a sheet calls for paper space.


why not create another drawing xref'd and plotted out to a different scale?Shouldnt the layers, linetypes are more controllable.



Quote

Why don't you list the type of things you want in Paperspace and Have people say yea or nay to them.

When you talk about grading plans - can you be more specific?

The existing topo is a different drawing than the new topo. and they are xref'd into eachother. Each portion of the new topo Water/Sewer/ New grading / Pavement / even Demolition are all different tabs.

Anything you need to see for the site has to go into Model. Anything that is superfluous goes in PS.

My Dime...
Little :O)


-nice thinking to examine the elements in paperspace with my group.

-i really dont have much experience with civil...however, i work for a civil company but Im the only one in charge of the structural drafting side and soon i will be cross training with civil. I have worked for other civil engineering companies but i didnt gained much knowledge of it because my interests was structural

-[i beleive] anything that goes in paperspace will not be scaled up or down unless it is a physical feature in what I am drawing. Think of a 24x36 paper with a 20x34 hole cut out of it and you can see right throuh it.

I use model to print and to draw. I use paper space for multiple views but if i have to change to Xrefs for a new sheet i would do that, in my field of work its not often that i use paper. but i think in civil there is a big purpose for that, but i try to avoid paper because by using it i can make 6 or 7 layouts wich will lag out my comp regenerating and make a difficult layering scheme. as for layering schemes all my layers are on except ony in xrefs where i chose to turn them off and or on PER specifics of the drawing.

Thanks guys

CADaver

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Paper Space Vs Model Space
« Reply #12 on: October 28, 2004, 08:51:19 PM »
I'm sooo confused.  I read the poll results that indicate over twice as many prefer MS over PS, then read all the posts and it seems the other way round.  Have I missed something???

Okay, we use LAYOUT tabs for everything EXCEPT the model itself, and a very few annotation elements that we want to see in "EVERY" file no matter what.

Now whether we're working on the model in the Model Tab, or through a paperspace viewport, depends on what we're doing at the time.  Usually we work in the Model Tab with multiple viewports while we're building the model, and rarely go to a layout tab until we're ready to begin annotation or make a model review plot.  Now, once we've begun annotation, we'll spend a lot of time in Layout tabs, reaching in through a viewport or two to edit the model in some way.

It is my experiance that those who do a lot of "model" work through PS viewports are unaware that you can use the VPORTS command in a Model tab to create "tiled" viewports.

For us, EVERYTHING is plotted from a layout tab (or tabs), including charts, and schedules. No drawing is fully MS, but some are fully PS.

MP

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« Reply #13 on: October 28, 2004, 09:37:21 PM »
Sure hate to lack originality, but please just tag my name on the bottom of Mr. Cadaver's post.

Alternatively I could just say the same thing in my words.

Yeah, I thought so too.
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Slim©

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Paper Space Vs Model Space
« Reply #14 on: October 28, 2004, 09:42:52 PM »
The two posts above CADaver's & MP's are how I feel as well.
I drink beer and I know things....

CADaver

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Paper Space Vs Model Space
« Reply #15 on: October 28, 2004, 09:59:02 PM »
Quote from: MP
Yeah, I thought so too.

!!

t-bear

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Paper Space Vs Model Space
« Reply #16 on: October 28, 2004, 10:24:31 PM »
What they said........

daron

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Paper Space Vs Model Space
« Reply #17 on: October 29, 2004, 08:51:09 AM »
Quote from: whdjr
...some small misc details that are xref'ed onto a layout tab (to scale) so as not to have to use a viewport (you know too many viewports equals too long waiting for regenerations).


It takes just as long to regen more referenced blocks as it does another viewport, but if you have very good layering standards, you can freeze off all the unnecessary layers pertaining to that viewport to speed up regeneration. I wrote a lisp that will use vplayer to freeze all layers, then thaw the one that was selected. I suppose I can hand it out if your interested. Speaking of regen speeds, try having multiple image files. Whooooooeeeee.

whdjr

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Paper Space Vs Model Space
« Reply #18 on: October 29, 2004, 09:52:54 AM »
Quote from: Daron
It takes just as long to regen more referenced blocks as it does another viewport

I differ on that.  If you compare a layout tab with 5 viewports to one that has 5 details xref'ed onto the layout tab, the later will load much faster.

ELOQUINTET

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Paper Space Vs Model Space
« Reply #19 on: October 29, 2004, 10:14:10 AM »
Quote
I'm sooo confused. I read the poll results that indicate over twice as many prefer MS over PS, then read all the posts and it seems the other way round. Have I missed something???


i didn't vote in the pole because i always use both in doing a drawing so this doesn't really work as a poll question because most use both correct  :wink:

CADaver

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Paper Space Vs Model Space
« Reply #20 on: October 29, 2004, 11:23:25 AM »
Quote from: eloquintet
Quote
I'm sooo confused. I read the poll results that indicate over twice as many prefer MS over PS, then read all the posts and it seems the other way round. Have I missed something???


i didn't vote in the pole because i always use both in doing a drawing so this doesn't really work as a poll question because most use both correct  :wink:


Okay ... ?

I think that WAS the poll question (or at least I thought it was).  There are a bunch of folks out there who don't use PS at all, everything is in MS.  I thought that was what the MS side of the poll was looking for.

dubb

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Paper Space Vs Model Space
« Reply #21 on: October 29, 2004, 11:35:12 AM »
yea...srry for the confustion...but i dont use any paper space...as a matter of fact..i try to avoid it most of the time...but when its neccessary i would use it. thanks for all your input.

ELOQUINTET

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Paper Space Vs Model Space
« Reply #22 on: October 29, 2004, 11:57:18 AM »
apparently they're are only a select few. based on our many discussions of the subject the standard seems to be model for drawing paper for plotting uh oh here's goes cadaver the quote master  :roll:  :lol:

dubb

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Paper Space Vs Model Space
« Reply #23 on: October 29, 2004, 12:12:47 PM »
i understand why some might not vote on this pole is because they use paper to work in model...or they are in model 95% of the time and when they are done they plot in paper....it suprised me to see the percentages up on paperspace i may be considering taking the advantage of using paperspace....but it shouldnt be much different for me i used to use it at my other job. oh well.

CADaver

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Paper Space Vs Model Space
« Reply #24 on: October 29, 2004, 02:33:10 PM »
Quote from: dubb
... it suprised me to see the percentages up on paperspace i may be considering taking the advantage of using paperspace.....
It suprised me to see it so low.  I'm hard pressed to come up with a reason NOT to use PS.

MP

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« Reply #25 on: October 29, 2004, 03:18:57 PM »
Quote from: CADaver
I'm hard pressed to come up with a reason NOT to use PS.

Can't count your nads twice and get the same answer?

I find it confusing a technology that clearly makes it easier to produced engineered documents is frequently thought of as difficult or complicated (it's neither) and is passed up for more convoluted, jury rigged "solutions" to achive the same net effect. While it could stand improvements, there's a reason we've been using it since its inception - it requires less effort to produce our deliverables (if I had to distil it down to one reason).
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SPDCad

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Paper Space Vs Model Space
« Reply #26 on: October 29, 2004, 03:26:46 PM »
Quote from: eloquintet
We use model for drawing and paper for printing period


Same here!

Everything is in model space! I only assemble drawings (ie. Title block, viewports) and print the final drawings from paperspace.
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Kate M

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Paper Space Vs Model Space
« Reply #27 on: October 29, 2004, 04:01:17 PM »
How about a new poll, then: Where do you plot/put titleblocks?

CADaver

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« Reply #28 on: October 29, 2004, 06:38:19 PM »
Quote from: MP
Quote from: CADaver
I'm hard pressed to come up with a reason NOT to use PS.

Can't count your nads twice and get the same answer?

I find it confusing a technology that clearly makes it easier to produced engineered documents is frequently thought of as difficult or complicated (it's neither) and is passed up for more convoluted, jury rigged "solutions" to achive the same net effect. While it could stand improvements, there's a reason we've been using it since its inception - it requires less effort to produce our deliverables (if I had to distil it down to one reason).
Gee I thought I capitalized the word NOT.

MP

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« Reply #29 on: October 29, 2004, 06:44:13 PM »
I was agreeing with you RC. :)

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Paper Space Vs Model Space
« Reply #30 on: October 29, 2004, 07:05:20 PM »
Quote from: MP
I was agreeing with you RC. :)

HAGWE.
Ohhhh, misread the "nads" comment, sorry.

Have one yerself, I gotta work.

Dinosaur

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Paper Space Vs Model Space
« Reply #31 on: October 29, 2004, 08:19:04 PM »
We do our grading plans using a modelspace viewport with the title block and annotation in paperspace.  The viewport, especially irregular shaped ones, allow saving extra blank space for notes and details.  They also allow easy adjusment of the area displayed should the project be split into different phases.  Also there are times when the projects can fit on a more useable scale if they are rotated and we find a rotated view in paperspace to be a very easy solution.  We will usually xref our base sheet for the grading and drainage plans if they are a large multiphase project.  In this case we place what annotations and linework only needed for these plans over the xref in modelspace.  For smaller projects we will sometimes just make a tab for them in the base plan.

MP

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« Reply #32 on: October 29, 2004, 08:28:00 PM »
Quote from: CADaver
Quote from: MP
I was agreeing with you RC. :)

HAGWE.
Ohhhh, misread the "nads" comment, sorry.

Have one yerself, I gotta work.

Me too. :roll:
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CADaver

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« Reply #33 on: October 29, 2004, 10:16:02 PM »
Quote from: MP
Quote from: CADaver
Have one yerself, I gotta work.

Me too. :roll:


Bummer, I've been working at least 6 - 12's for over 2 years.  It's gettin' old... REAL old.

MP

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« Reply #34 on: October 29, 2004, 10:33:23 PM »
Well I can't sing the same song ... I've  managed to avoid any significant O/T for the last 2 years. This weekend's work is because a colleague is in a bind ( project behind schedule ) and I volunteered to write a program for him this weekend to read a database of schematic info and auto spew drawings from it, so there's a fun factor for me despite that it's work.
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MP

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« Reply #35 on: October 31, 2004, 04:06:41 PM »
Quote from: MP
I volunteered to write a program for him this weekend to read a database of schematic info and auto spew drawings ...

YEEHAA, currently spewing drawings at the rate of 3.9 drawings per second!

Sorry, had to pat myself on the back. :D
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Mark

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Paper Space Vs Model Space
« Reply #36 on: October 31, 2004, 04:18:58 PM »
Sounds like a fun project. Knowing even a little programming in this busniess can make a huge difference. Way to go MP!!
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MP

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« Reply #37 on: November 01, 2004, 08:27:56 AM »
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CADaver

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« Reply #38 on: November 01, 2004, 10:16:13 AM »
Quote from: MP
YEEHAA, currently spewing drawings at the rate of 3.9 drawings per second!

Sorry, had to pat myself on the back. :D
Consider this a pat from me as well.  Currently the only way I can get a drawing anywhere near "spewed", is by physically throttling the least productive stress engineer in front of the rest of them.  The funny noise he makes while his head snaps back and forth seems to get their attention.

MP

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« Reply #39 on: November 01, 2004, 05:32:44 PM »
Quote from: CADaver
Consider this a pat from me as well.  Currently the only way I can get a drawing anywhere near "spewed", is by physically throttling the least productive stress engineer in front of the rest of them.  The funny noise he makes while his head snaps back and forth seems to get their attention.

As satisfying as it is to design and code an application like this, your work flow yields results far more satisfying me thinks. :D
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CADaver

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Paper Space Vs Model Space
« Reply #40 on: November 01, 2004, 05:38:10 PM »
Quote from: MP
Quote from: CADaver
Consider this a pat from me as well.  Currently the only way I can get a drawing anywhere near "spewed", is by physically throttling the least productive stress engineer in front of the rest of them.  The funny noise he makes while his head snaps back and forth seems to get their attention.

As satisfying as it is to design and code an application like this, your work flow yields results far more satisfying me thinks. :D
There is something quite satisfying about a well placed grip and just the perfect  force in the shake to produce just the right tone in the "YAGADA-YAGADA-YAGADA".  Too much grip and they make no sound at all, too little and you can still make out the curses, but just right, and the boys at Warner Bros. cartoon dept. would be proud.

ELOQUINTET

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Paper Space Vs Model Space
« Reply #41 on: November 02, 2004, 09:36:19 AM »
went out drinkin last night so i'm doin a different sort of spewin but spewin nonetheless.  :lol:

ronjonp

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Paper Space Vs Model Space
« Reply #42 on: November 02, 2004, 11:21:48 AM »
model in modelspace....print from paperspace......it's a no brainer

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dubb

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Paper Space Vs Model Space
« Reply #43 on: November 02, 2004, 11:46:55 AM »
that says it all....i think the conclusion to this forum topic should be closed. i find from all this input that all aspects of autdesk has its purposes on how each individual drafter sets his standard is the right way otherwise its wrong if its not done per standard. whether or not a drawing was plotted out using ps or ms the end product should always be consistent as well as the cad file. one of the main cad related issue is for the next cad tech to review a cad file and understand the enviroment and the overall asthetics of a cad file. most people use paper space and some dont its just a matter of preferences set by standards. thank you all. did i miss anything?

ELOQUINTET

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Paper Space Vs Model Space
« Reply #44 on: November 02, 2004, 12:14:38 PM »
yeah see ron's comments above that says it all short and sweet  :twisted: