Author Topic: Read only ACAD files  (Read 9935 times)

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danny

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Read only ACAD files
« on: October 15, 2004, 09:43:50 PM »
I'm wondering if anyone knows or have seen autocad files where the ojects and lines are embbedded in the file, read only?  A file where it is not possible to manipulate the drawing, besides turning layers on and off and drawing over layout.  The reason I'm asking is because I'm working on a very large retail project where my firm is doing the overall shell of the retail spaces and each tenant will higher their own architect to layout their spaces.  We would like to have our main file read only so other architects cannot manipulate our drawings.  Can DWF's be brought back into AutoCAD?  We don't want to use images because it requires having to insert them at the correct scale. :?

Mahalo,

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« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2004, 10:02:40 PM »
DWF files can be reverse engineered, search these forums for DWF.

http://www.cadlock.com might be more what you're looking for.
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danny

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« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2004, 10:14:23 PM »
thanks MP... :)

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« Reply #3 on: October 15, 2004, 10:16:29 PM »
:)

(posted from Sage).
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Keith™

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« Reply #4 on: October 15, 2004, 11:07:54 PM »
I use a neat little trick that without a program the user cannot explode the drawing .... I do this .....

Create an anonymous block of the entire drawing, scale it to a wierd scale, mirror it so it has a negative scale in the X or y plane create a new anonymous block of the mirrored scaled anonymous block and minsert it with row spacing of 0 and column spacing of 0.....then scale the block down the original scale....

It seems like alot to do, but it really chucks a wobbly if the user tries to explode or insert the original anonymous block....
I am not sure about 2004+ but in most 2000 & 2002 installations if you try to explode an anonymous block that has an anonymous block with a negative scale, it will cause AutoCAD to lock up...
Not pretty but effective....
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« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2004, 11:16:59 PM »
I've done the minsert thing just as you've noted but never thought of using an anonymous block with those calisthenics. :)
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hyposmurf

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« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2004, 06:19:50 AM »
Someone's going to get a few grey hairs trying to explode a block like that :twisted:

CADaver

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« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2004, 08:02:05 AM »
Sounds like somebody here needs to write something that'll do all that.

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« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2004, 08:16:18 AM »
I would be extremely surprised to hear Keith does that by hand every time.

In our work such a program would have to mindful of xrefs, custom objects, clipping planes, multiple viewports etc. ... "normalizing" these issues (let's call that flattening) would have to be performed first. Once flattened the drawing could then be, let's see, let's call it obfuscated.

:)
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CADaver

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« Reply #9 on: October 16, 2004, 09:00:41 AM »
Quote from: MP
I would be extremely surprised to hear Keith does that by hand every time.
So would I, that was a hint to share  :wink:

Quote from: MP
In our work such a program would have to mindful of xrefs, custom objects, clipping planes, multiple viewports etc. ... "normalizing" these issues (let's call that flattening) would have to be performed first. Once flattened the drawing could then be, let's see, let's call it obfuscated.
:)
We rely so heavily on very large XREF's I don't see us using it that much for the bulk of our clients.  But we have a couple that ... let's say ... are candidates for "punitive" engineering, if you know what I mean.

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« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2004, 09:12:42 AM »
Quote from: CADaverous one
That was a hint to share

And I was acknowledging it. ;)

Quote from: CADaverous one
We rely so heavily on very large XREF's I don't see us using it that much for the bulk of our clients.  But we have a couple that ... let's say ... are candidates for "punitive" engineering, if you know what I mean.

One thing you can do is perform a WMFout*  from an existing drawing and then do a WMFin in a blank one (or blow the contents of the existing one away first); *poof*, instant punishment.

* For each viewport.
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CADaver

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« Reply #11 on: October 16, 2004, 10:12:42 AM »
Quote from: MP
Quote from: CADaverous one
That was a hint to share

And I was acknowledging it. ;)

Quote from: CADaverous one
We rely so heavily on very large XREF's I don't see us using it that much for the bulk of our clients.  But we have a couple that ... let's say ... are candidates for "punitive" engineering, if you know what I mean.

One thing you can do is perform a WMFout*  from an existing drawing and then do a WMFin in a blank one (or blow the contents of the existing one away first); *poof*, instant punishment.

* For each viewport.
That'd work.  One of our IT whiz-kids ported up an old binary plotter driver, so what we do now is plot to the binary in color, then import the raster image into an empty drawing, run a raster-vector routine, and purge.  You wind up with everything on layer 0 with a color and everything a vector including text and dims.

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« Reply #12 on: October 16, 2004, 10:39:15 AM »
Indeed.

I used to do a very similar thing with dxb. I wrote two programs: one orchestrated a dxb plot of each viewport (hidden lines removed), layer by layer (this way layering was retained), then did a dxb import on optimized dxb files. The second app was the one that optimized the dxb files in the background. While the dxb format supports polylines, AutoCAD writes everything as individual line segments. For example a circle might be represented by 72 line segments. My optimizer would find those 72 contiguous elements and convert them into a polyline. It was fun, because Autodesk's own published dxf format documentation is incorrect (tho it's real close); I had to crack the format with a hex editor.

I did a very similar thing using wmf, and incidentally, showed both programs to Autodesk representatives who came a visiting my office (they used to do this about once a year or so). About a year later they came out with an express tools flatten based on .. wmf. Coincidence? S-u-r-e. Credits? R-i-g-h-t.
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CADaver

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« Reply #13 on: October 16, 2004, 11:02:44 AM »
Quote from: MP
layer by layer (this way layering was retained),
...
For example a circle might be represented by 72 line segments.
...
That would be the "punitive" part as far as I'm concerned.

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« Reply #14 on: October 16, 2004, 11:24:54 AM »
Indeed. Mine processed text | attribs separately (i.e. retained as text), but it sounds like you prefer the full lobotomy ('course, that makes sense given the original post). :)
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CADaver

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« Reply #15 on: October 16, 2004, 02:22:18 PM »
Quote from: MP
Indeed. Mine processed text | attribs separately (i.e. retained as text), but it sounds like you prefer the full lobotomy ('course, that makes sense given the original post). :)

I WANT them to call and complain, PLEASE call me.  

Oh yes, PLEASE call me and complain about my drawings you DIMENSION-EXPLODING, EYE-BALL-DRAFTING, NOTHING-ON-COORDINATE, 3-PIECES-OF-TEXT-FOR-ONE-LINE, LINE-BREAKING-FOR-LINETYPE-DRAFTING, TITLE-BLOCK-EXPLODING, MOUTH-BREATHIN'...

... ummm ....

... excuse me, got a little carried away there...

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« Reply #16 on: October 16, 2004, 02:27:12 PM »
Some might think this is an exaggerated froth. It's not. Having been a CAD Janitor for the last ten years I feel your pain and commend you for what amounts to a restrained response.
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CADaver

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« Reply #17 on: October 16, 2004, 02:55:39 PM »
Quote from: MP
Some might think this is an exaggerated froth. It's not. Having been a CAD Janitor for the last ten years I feel your pain and commend you for what amounts to a restrained response.
Fortunately it's only one or two that are outside my contractual control.  But in time, they too, will be assimilated or eliminated. :twisted:

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« Reply #18 on: October 17, 2004, 02:04:53 PM »
Looks like CADaver is turning into the BORG of the CAD universe....
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whdjr

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« Reply #19 on: October 18, 2004, 09:34:29 AM »
Quote from: CADAver
Quote from: MP
MP wrote:
Indeed. Mine processed text | attribs separately (i.e. retained as text), but it sounds like you prefer the full lobotomy ('course, that makes sense given the original post).  


I WANT them to call and complain, PLEASE call me.

Oh yes, PLEASE call me and complain about my drawings you DIMENSION-EXPLODING, EYE-BALL-DRAFTING, NOTHING-ON-COORDINATE, 3-PIECES-OF-TEXT-FOR-ONE-LINE, LINE-BREAKING-FOR-LINETYPE-DRAFTING, TITLE-BLOCK-EXPLODING, MOUTH-BREATHIN'...

... ummm ....

... excuse me, got a little carried away there...

Here!Here!
My sentiments exactly.[/quote]

Andrew H

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« Reply #20 on: October 18, 2004, 10:41:47 AM »
I was thinking there was a way to change the access of the file (from windows explorer), but retain the ability to xref the drawing(s). I was trying it on my drawing, but with no luck. Maybe someone else knows more about this approach.

Maybe there is a way to password protect the files. Adjust the properties of the file to be read-only, then put a password on the file so that someone could still xref it, but couldn't actually modify it without the password.

Maybe someone could come up with a lisp that could do this?

CADaver

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« Reply #21 on: October 18, 2004, 11:31:30 AM »
Quote from: Andrew H
I was thinking there was a way to change the access of the file (from windows explorer), but retain the ability to xref the drawing(s). I was trying it on my drawing, but with no luck. Maybe someone else knows more about this approach.

Maybe there is a way to password protect the files. Adjust the properties of the file to be read-only, then put a password on the file so that someone could still xref it, but couldn't actually modify it without the password.

Maybe someone could come up with a lisp that could do this?
Your method above works, but locks you out of your own file.

We setup directory "rights" on our network, based on discipline.   Mechanical guys can only WRITE to Mechanical directories, but they can READ everything else.  Saves a load of headaches.

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« Reply #22 on: October 18, 2004, 11:37:43 AM »
We save our drawings to a new folder before e-mailing the current drawing to clients. That way we have a copy of the drawing exactly as the client received it and can track our changes. This fills up the server, but every so often we put the older stuff onto CDs to free up server space. One could change the rights on the saveas-ed copy and send that one (adding a password). Even if you didn't need to keep a copy of it, so the client can't change the information.

But I don't know how this would work over someone elses network, as in rights on there server. The only thing I can think of is a password.

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« Reply #23 on: October 18, 2004, 12:03:41 PM »
Quote from: CADaver
We setup directory "rights" on our network, based on discipline.   Mechanical guys can only WRITE to Mechanical directories, but they can READ everything else.  Saves a load of headaches.

That's exactly the way we have out network set up, tho us janitor types have full rights to all CAD related drives / directories; moo haa haa haa. :twisted:
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« Reply #24 on: October 18, 2004, 12:29:58 PM »
Quote from: Andrew H
We save our drawings to a new folder before e-mailing the current drawing to clients. That way we have a copy of the drawing exactly as the client received it and can track our changes. This fills up the server, but every so often we put the older stuff onto CDs to free up server space. One could change the rights on the saveas-ed copy and send that one (adding a password). Even if you didn't need to keep a copy of it, so the client can't change the information.

But I don't know how this would work over someone elses network, as in rights on there server. The only thing I can think of is a password.
Even the password can be fooled with a SAVEAS, so the client can edit the data.

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« Reply #25 on: October 18, 2004, 12:31:04 PM »
Quote from: MP
Quote from: CADaver
We setup directory "rights" on our network, based on discipline.   Mechanical guys can only WRITE to Mechanical directories, but they can READ everything else.  Saves a load of headaches.

That's exactly the way we have out network set up, tho us janitor types have full rights to all CAD related drives / directories; moo haa haa haa. :twisted:
yeah, only with that "priviledge" comes all the grunt work of a "janitor".

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« Reply #26 on: October 18, 2004, 12:34:27 PM »
Hmmm... If I receive a file I can only xref (because there is a password) and I do a save as, then the new drawing (the saveas file) would still have the xref that is password protected. The password I'm thinking of wouldn't go through ACAD, but rather through windows some how. This may or may not be a possibility, but maybe worth looking into if its that important.

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« Reply #27 on: October 18, 2004, 12:34:33 PM »
Quote from: CADaver
yeah, only with that "priviledge" comes all the grunt work
of a "janitor".

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« Reply #28 on: October 18, 2004, 01:12:23 PM »
Quote from: Andrew H
Hmmm... If I receive a file I can only xref (because there is a password) and I do a save as, then the new drawing (the saveas file) would still have the xref that is password protected. The password I'm thinking of wouldn't go through ACAD, but rather through windows some how. This may or may not be a possibility, but maybe worth looking into if its that important.
Opening the XREF'd file and SAVEAS a different file kills the protection.  The original file can then be replaced by the new file that is no longer protected.

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« Reply #29 on: October 18, 2004, 02:18:01 PM »
That's true be the client would have to have the password to open the file.

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« Reply #30 on: October 18, 2004, 03:05:48 PM »
Quote from: Andrew H
That's true be the client would have to have the password to open the file.
Not currently.  With the "read-only" attrib marked and passworded, the file can still be opened "read-only", it just can't be "written" over.  A simple SAVEAS another file defeats the protecttion.  Even if you could lock-up the source file the XREF could be bound and wblocked.

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« Reply #31 on: October 18, 2004, 03:15:50 PM »
Well there goes that idea.

Thanks for the info.

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« Reply #32 on: October 18, 2004, 03:37:15 PM »
does anyone have a clue on how the program MP suggested works or was created.http://www.cadlock.com  Keith has a cool trick, but I myself had to read his directions a few times to get it right.  I wouldn't want to imagine trying to explain that process to others on my team.  A lisp would be cool for that routine but a password would definatlety seal the deal.  I've tried working with the IT guy in our office to lock the files using windows, but CADaver is right....saveas and replace will kill ya..

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« Reply #33 on: October 18, 2004, 03:52:05 PM »
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Andrew H

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« Reply #34 on: October 18, 2004, 04:03:45 PM »
Does anyone know how much the full version is going for? I can't seem to find a price.

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« Reply #35 on: October 18, 2004, 04:08:36 PM »
guess i should've explored the site before I asked.  Also, price is always a setback here...

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« Reply #36 on: October 18, 2004, 04:10:36 PM »
ditto

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« Reply #37 on: October 18, 2004, 04:16:29 PM »
Don't mean to be flippant, but generally speaking you get what you pay for. $400 is cheap for Mr. Owen's (and associates) expertise in these matters (IMO).
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« Reply #38 on: October 18, 2004, 04:17:47 PM »
So CADLock is $400 a seat?

Holy cheese, Batman!

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« Reply #39 on: October 18, 2004, 04:31:29 PM »
Quote from: danny
The reason I'm asking is because I'm working on a very large retail project where my firm is doing the overall shell of the retail spaces and each tenant will higher their own architect to layout their spaces.  We would like to have our main file read only so other architects cannot manipulate our drawings.

Seems a small price to pay for security on a project like you described above unless you're all working pro bono. Anyway, I don't work for Mr. Wengerd and have no affiliations with him or his products. I suggested cadlock because it's a sound, mature product (about 10 years old) and he is a reputable, trustworthy person .. and a very clever programmer I might add.
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Re: Read only ACAD files
« Reply #40 on: October 18, 2004, 04:40:09 PM »
Quote from: MP
Quote from: danny
The reason I'm asking is because I'm working on a very large retail project where my firm is doing the overall shell of the retail spaces and each tenant will higher their own architect to layout their spaces.  We would like to have our main file read only so other architects cannot manipulate our drawings.

Seems a small price to pay for security on a project like you described above unless you're all working pro bono. Anyway, I don't work for Mr. Wengerd and have no affiliations with him or his products. I suggested cadlock because it's a sound, mature product (about 10 years old) and he is a reputable, trustworthy person .. and a very clever programmer I might add.
Here here

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« Reply #41 on: October 18, 2004, 04:48:49 PM »
Considering it's the only program of it's kind on the market, I would have to agree. $400 isn't that bad, if you absolutely need that protection.

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« Reply #42 on: October 18, 2004, 05:34:30 PM »
You're welcome Andrew, cheers. :)
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« Reply #43 on: October 18, 2004, 09:36:11 PM »
I tried CADlock some time ago and found that when I used it before it required that the ARX file be loaded on the system accessing the file, otherwise access to the file was denied.
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« Reply #44 on: October 18, 2004, 09:56:35 PM »
Quote from: Keith
I tried CADlock some time ago and found that when I used it before it required that the ARX file be loaded on the system accessing the file, otherwise access to the file was denied.

And that's a problem how? If the drawing ends up in the hands of someone who doesn't have the arx (legitimately, c/w password presumably) should they have access? I'm thinking no. That's the point of cadlock -- you're locked out if you don't have the arx | key; even with the key access is limited to the rights granted that key (ok, actually guessing at this last bit).

Or am I missing your point (which would be a first of course).

:)
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« Reply #45 on: October 18, 2004, 10:09:50 PM »
Ok... perhaps I should clarify here ....

You are the producer of a file ... for whatever reason you wish to lock the drawing so that it may not be manipulated outside of your computer .... mind you that is your computer only .. the one with CADlock installed .... lets presume now you have some 200 workstations....these drawings must be shared among other people for different aspects of the drawings AND your client who may require these drawings must ALSO have CADlock, simply to view the file .....
Now ... with 200 users and one client ... 201 seats @$400 ea = $80400.00 ..... is it worth that expense? Yeah .. in a small office the problem is not so big, but are you going to tell your client that he has to buy a $400 seat of CADlock to view his file?

The main issue is not to disallow a person to view the drawing ... you could simply password protect the drawing to do that .. then CADlock is of no consequense anyway ...
Could there be an embedded macro that prevents modification ???
Personally I have seen little advance in this area... although I did preview a beta of a program that touted prevention of drawing manipulation while allowing drawing access....but it never made it passed the beta stage due to severe issues with drawing header corruption....
It would be nice to have the ability to do that....
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« Reply #46 on: October 18, 2004, 10:12:29 PM »
Site license is approx. $1600, a few coins less than $80K. :)
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« Reply #47 on: October 18, 2004, 10:24:43 PM »
you are indeed correct .... I just spent some time at their site reviewing it. There have been a few updates since I previewed it some years ago. I would still caution that the client must also have the software or the drawings cannot be accessed.
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« Reply #48 on: October 18, 2004, 10:29:17 PM »
Quote from: Keith
I would still caution that the client must also have the software or the drawings cannot be accessed.

Yes, and I suggest that is by design, but it is good to advise folks as such.
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