Author Topic: Books on Civil and Land.  (Read 19256 times)

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MSTG007

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Re: Books on Civil and Land.
« Reply #45 on: May 20, 2008, 10:34:38 AM »
Mike,
I am learning something here. Yes WOOHOO I Can Learn! Any ways, It seems no matter where you are at. Communication is the BreakDown. And I think Led Zeppelin's Communication Breakdown fits it.
We all hear this, words are sometimes hard to understand. Pictures give a thousand words. Movies and real files give endless information.
Do you think by people suppling full movies / drawings / animations. Other people could understand what the problem is.
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mjfarrell

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Re: Books on Civil and Land.
« Reply #46 on: May 20, 2008, 10:43:42 AM »
Any means of getting the other person to actually 'get' what the problem, and or desired functionality is; up to and including things that may or may not be similar to torture.

However it must begin with a willingness to <accept, admit> that there are problems, and or deficiencies in the product. And there needs to be more openness to the process, I think the word is transparent, so that users can see the dialog and measure the results, or responsiveness for themselves. 

I have been told that I am too hard on these poor programmers/developers. I say, if they are that proud of their efforts, prove me wrong. Fix, or add that which their customers want; and shut me up in the process.

Although in my last exchange with autodesk on an issue I did provide an AVI and other documentation; and recently discovered the problem was never even officially logged.

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MSTG007

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Re: Books on Civil and Land.
« Reply #47 on: May 20, 2008, 10:48:01 AM »
In all reality of the life of CAD. In the begining when there was CAD. Developers had to listen to customers in order to give them what they want. Makes sense. However, over time, 10,000 years AD, CAD is now used for 1,000,000 of people. So how can the developers listen to all of us. :cry:
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scout

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Re: Books on Civil and Land.
« Reply #48 on: May 20, 2008, 12:37:10 PM »
Now, in your own words please repeat the goals of the development team. Just so you, make me understand that you understand the goal. It should look and sound something like the following:


I agree with you. The problem is that the Map Dev team and the Civil 3D Dev team aren't in the same place and have very little communication.

It's a big problem. I don't have a solution or good answers for you.

mjfarrell

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Re: Books on Civil and Land.
« Reply #49 on: May 20, 2008, 12:40:21 PM »
scout is on it..now..heads will roll :roll:
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Michael Farrell
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scout

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Re: Books on Civil and Land.
« Reply #50 on: May 20, 2008, 12:42:31 PM »
However it must begin with a willingness to <accept, admit> that there are problems, and or deficiencies in the product. And there needs to be more openness to the process, I think the word is transparent, so that users can see the dialog and measure the results, or responsiveness for themselves. 

I have been told that I am too hard on these poor programmers/developers. I say, if they are that proud of their efforts, prove me wrong. Fix, or add that which their customers want; and shut me up in the process.

I have never run into any one on the team that isn't proud of Civil 3D. Nor have I met anyone who doesn't think that there are things to be fixed.

It is a small group. It probably should be bigger. They have 24 hours in a day just like us, and I guess they have to pick and choose what to fix within the constraints they are given.

On my first trip to manchester, I expected it to be like an ER. People running around yelling "Fatal Error, STAT!". But when I saw the reality of such a small group tackling such a big task, I finally understood why things aren't always done as quickly as we, the users, would like.

Should it be bigger? Sure. Should they fix everything? No doubt. Will it happen tomorrow? Not likely. What do we do in the meantime? Respect their time, their efforts and their accomplishments to date. Use the software for what it is, and continue to offer constructive feedback to keep it moving forward. Speak with our pocketbooks by moving to another software or dropping subscription. Etc.

scout

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Re: Books on Civil and Land.
« Reply #51 on: May 20, 2008, 12:48:08 PM »
At first, I encouraged everyone here to purchase the book, but now I discourage it because it pollutes their mind with too many ill concepts and I have to explain why they shouldn't do such and such.  A good example is creating a ROW parcel.  It seems as usual, that us surveyors just get ignored.  What you engineering people fail to realize, if it wasn't for us, your designs wouldn't be created.  Just my $0.02.

I appreciate your feedback. I'd like to hear more about some of the tools that are shown that aren't effective. I am not a big fan of the ROW tool myself, which is why I only show it quickly, and added two sidebars. One, on page 185 is called "When the ROW is not enough", and the other is the Real World Scenario on page 201 where I make the right-of-way from polylines. The parcel chapter was based on quite a bit of site plan work I did a few years back in C3D 2006 where, as we all know, there was a lot of crap in the parcel realm (and some of it remains, no doubt.) And since parcels are one of my favorite tools, despite their awful habits, please let me know what else I can do to make the chapter more practical.

What else do you feel you need to explain to users not to try? Please help me make the text better.

DBP

mjfarrell

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Re: Books on Civil and Land.
« Reply #52 on: May 20, 2008, 12:52:26 PM »
I have never run into any one on the team that isn't proud of Civil 3D. Nor have I met anyone who doesn't think that there are things to be fixed.

It is a small group. It probably should be bigger. They have 24 hours in a day just like us, and I guess they have to pick and choose what to fix within the constraints they are given.


If they know it needs to be fixed, nothing should constrain them. Or whomever is creating said constraints needs to move out of the way.

Speak with our pocketbooks by moving to another software or dropping subscription. Etc.



Speak with our pocketbooks by moving to another software or dropping subscription. Etc.



Speak with our pocketbooks by moving to another software or dropping subscription. Etc.


 :-o
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Michael Farrell
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MSTG007

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Re: Books on Civil and Land.
« Reply #53 on: May 20, 2008, 01:17:31 PM »
What is that saying... Do  I need to read inbetween the lines? What are you saying???
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Dinosaur

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Re: Books on Civil and Land.
« Reply #54 on: May 20, 2008, 01:24:51 PM »
I think he is saying squadrons of flying swine have been sighted circling over the frozen gates of Hades.

mjfarrell

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Re: Books on Civil and Land.
« Reply #55 on: May 20, 2008, 01:28:01 PM »
I think he is saying squadrons of flying swine have been sighted circling over the frozen gates of Hades.

with pink Tutu's and ice skates on




NO, that isn't it at all.

 :lmao:


Speak with our pocketbooks by moving to another software or dropping subscription. Etc.
Speak with our pocketbooks by moving to another software or dropping subscription. Etc.
Speak with our pocketbooks by moving to another software or dropping subscription. Etc.
Speak with our pocketbooks by moving to another software or dropping subscription. Etc.
Speak with our pocketbooks by moving to another software or dropping subscription. Etc.

Be your Best


Michael Farrell
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MSTG007

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Re: Books on Civil and Land.
« Reply #56 on: May 20, 2008, 01:37:26 PM »
i HAVE A QUESTION!!!!! Its the right question.  :angel: Can you show this to the Autodesk Subscr. Peeps.
The rainbow quote above. its so pretty and true.
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scout

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Re: Books on Civil and Land.
« Reply #57 on: May 20, 2008, 04:15:32 PM »
If they know it needs to be fixed, nothing should constrain them. Or whomever is creating said constraints needs to move out of the way.

So you find a problem and you manage to get acknowledgement that it is, indeed, a defect. Or, just something that is awkward and really should be adjusted.

So the team has have a list of 10 things that need to be fixed, but they only have time to do 5 before things need to be packaged up.

Comes to simple project management. Scope, Schedule, Budget.

So you could say... pick the 5 that affect the most of our users/customers and do them.
So you could say.... there should be more time.
So you could say.... there should be more people on the team.

Probably all of that is true. What would you do if you were the QA/developer/whoever that was the actual "fixer" of the defect itself and you were told- there is no money for more people. There is no more time this release. If you cared a lot, you would probably do whatever you could to try to do as much as possible, but if you refuse to do the tasks that the team decides are priority, where does that leave you? Where does that leave the users? Trying to barrel through the system by pushing the limits to the extreme could get them stonewalled, or worse, fired. And then we users would be in a pickle, because the best people would be gone. The visionaries of tomorrow.

The people that are the "doers" now are often the "deciders" of tomorrow. They also work in the same building as a few of the "deciders", so theoretically they could get their attention now and again.

Some of the great autodesk people that pop into the mainstream DG care a LOT about the product and want to make it better, but they aren't the people that can say "No more subscription!" "No more annual release!" by proclaimation. They might be that person someday, or they might get the ear of that person someday soon.

The best you can do is alert them to the problems, give them real reasons why it is an implementation roadblock not only for you, but for regions of the US or Canada or the world or whatever.

As far as changing the corporate machine goes, I think you have a few options.

-Decide you like Civil 3D for what it is and just hang on for the ride
-Decide you like CIvil 3D for what it is and become a part of the constructive conversation for improvement
-Decide while Civil 3D is handy, it isn't worth it from a business perspective for your company, and you need to find another solution

If you decide to become part of the constructive conversation, there are a few angles. The technical angle through the DG and possibly creating your own blog or similar that shows off your highs and lows. This is one way to potentially get recognized as someone who is worth talking to from a feedback perspective. Attend Autodesk University if you can, and get involved in some of the breakout sessions. Join MyFeedback and help find bugs for the new release (knowing that you can't change much about the software, just helping find bugs makes their life easier so they will be more likely want your continued input).

There is also the business angle. Your reseller may not be terribly handy to you, but they do have access to an Autodesk Sales person and an Autodesk AE that covers their region. If you, politely and constructively, arrange through your reseller to have a meeting or conversation with these people, you can express your business/financial concerns to a receptive audience that can move things up the chain. It is a bit of a long climb, but I would say if you can be compelling that your situation applies to more than just your microniche, then things might happen. I would position it like this: I want to remain a customer, but this is what is keeping me from being able to do that.





mjfarrell

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Re: Books on Civil and Land.
« Reply #58 on: May 20, 2008, 04:33:23 PM »
As you state it the problem IS the solution. The fact there are not enough people as you proclaim to handle the task, indicates an absolute need to STOP trying to push out a new release (new interface, no new features) that only infuriates the customer base every year. At best most companies adoption cycle is 18 months or more, admit that, and there will be enough time and persons to manage the fixes AND the new development equally well, or better.


Scout it works like this for me:



Years ago I worked in a Truss plant building prefabricated trusses and joists. I started at the bottom, worked hard and became a Crew Chief.  After a few weeks, management called me in and reviewed my work. The end of the conversation was they were happy with the quality of my work (zero defects or returns) however they wanted more volume (despite producing 5% more than any other crew). 
My position was that If I increased the volume the quality would suffer. They were happy to have more of less quality; despite that being my JOB I refused to do so. Sure I had to train another guy to do my job, and later found employment better suited to my perfectionist personality.  I will not sacrifice quality for quantity, and this is what the company asks those folks to do every day.

If they care about the product they can do something about it.
It might cost them their job, they might need to start the company that lets them write a better product.

I do not think that your suggestion of swimming in the same channels that have produced, or do not produce measurable results is the answer.  However a combination of methods must be employed as the status quo, only leads to more of the same.

"We can not solve a problem with the same level of thinking that created it."  A Einstein


It' is time to try another approach, such that the solution is no longer the problem.
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Michael Farrell
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sinc

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Re: Books on Civil and Land.
« Reply #59 on: May 20, 2008, 05:23:45 PM »
So you find a problem and you manage to get acknowledgement that it is, indeed, a defect. Or, just something that is awkward and really should be adjusted.

So the team has have a list of 10 things that need to be fixed, but they only have time to do 5 before things need to be packaged up.

Comes to simple project management. Scope, Schedule, Budget.

So you could say... pick the 5 that affect the most of our users/customers and do them.
So you could say.... there should be more time.
So you could say.... there should be more people on the team.



That is misleading.

It is difficult to say what exactly is happening inside of Autodesk.  They like to keep everything hidden.  But some things shine through.

Autodesk has a marketing team that has decided that they will release a version of the software every year, on the year.  There is no leeway given for this.  The needs of the software or the software development team are not considered.  They have a release schedule; they must release a version every March, no matter what.

So they get into a twisted form of triage, where they look at all the problems, issues, and enhancements they need/want to do to the product.  And they look at it in the context of "we have this much time".  So the very first thing they do is decide "what can we do in a year?"

Now there are some very severe problems in Civil-3D that have been in the product since its first release.  (Parcels are one of them - they are mis-designed from the ground up.)  A real fix would involve basically rewriting the whole thing, as well as much of the things that tie to Parcels (in particular, Alignments).  Unfortunately, over the years, a lot of code has been built on this bad foundation.  So it will take some time to fix.  Based on how long it takes Autodesk to do things, I'd say there's no chance that they could do such a major rewrite in a year.

But they have that ultimatum from Marketing that they MUST make a release in a year.  So, that dreadfully-important task does not get done, because it would take more than a year, and if they got into it, they would miss the next release.  That CANNOT happen.

So instead, Autodesk apparently decides not to fix the core problem - it's too much work.  So they throw some band-aids on, and make it a bit easier to use.  The next release, there are more band-aids.  And the next release, even more band-aids.  By this time, we have band-aids on band-aids on band-aids, and many of them aren't even touching the original core.  We've got a software package that is nothing but a mass of band-aids.

Once we get a product like that, any little change has a ton of unforeseen consequences.  Bugs start breeding uncontrollably.  And we end up with something like Civil-3D's 2008 and 2009 releases, which introduce only minor improvements to existing functionality, and nothing new and exciting to speak of.  All the rest of the time is eaten up by bug fixes.

All of this is VERY avoidable.  But smart engineers on your technical team can't do it.  You can have the most-brilliant software engineers that have ever lived all involved in a project.  But if the overall software development process is flawed, those programmers get largely wasted.

This is not a problem that is unique to Autodesk.  Unfortunately, it is the industry standard.  Did you know that less than 10% of software projects are completed on-schedule?  And more than half of them fail completely.  In any other industry, this would be completely unacceptable.  Could you imaging building a bridge, and in your bid, you said "There is only a 10% chance of completing this bridge on-time, and a 50% chance that the whole thing will collapse at some point before the project is done," do you think you'd get the job?  Well, when it comes to software, that's considered normal.  And we are constantly fed lines about "well, this software is really complicated, and you can't really expect anything else...  It's all 'beta'..."  Well, that's not true.  In reality, it's poor processes, and lack of knowledge about what "good processes" are.