Topic: Site property line layout?

[Josh Nieman]

Providing a dimension from site property line to building isn't illegal in Louisiana.  It's common site plan practice.

Note that above I wrote "dimension ... to an existing building".

Showing a dimension to a proposed bldg. is no problem for site design.

C. Roberts

I don't believe the difference matters around here, for that, either.

[mjfarrell]

I'm with Josh on this one.
Dimensions shown to existing buildings from the lot line is common on many site surveys, and A.L.T.A.s.
Showing the same dimensions to a proposed building is also common, and not 'illegal'.  The true issue here would be the accuracy, or better the precision of those dimensions. So if the survey or cadd technician doesn't use proper care to insure that the dimensions are placed perpendicular to the calculated lot line (not assumed); and those dimensions are true therein lies the potential legal problem of encroaching on either A)setback lines, or B) adjacent property owners parcels comes into play.  I have worked with individuals in the past who did not understand that the survey drawing is in fact a legal instrument and all dimensions and measurements shown must be as accurate and as precise as is practicable.  It would almost suggest that failing to place the building dimensions relative to a calculated lot line, would be the negligent act, not the inclusion of same. Given that B) the lot lines were properly surveyed and adjusted, and B) the dimensions were correct.

From ALTA requirements:http://www.trgpsc.com/download/ALTASurveyReq.pdf

6. Identify, and show or note, the Zoning Classification and the name of that district, the
permitted uses, setback, height, bulk, density and parking restrictions of record or
disclosed by applicable zoning or building codes (in addition to those recorded in
subdivision maps). Also list the source of your information, that is, to whom you talked
to at the zoning authority, their title, address and phone number. It is understood that the
surveyor will state information and facts of record and will show all plot able items on
the survey.

And while not specifically called out; how else would the surveyor note the facts of record as stated above without showing a few dimensions to tie the building to the site lines, and easements as required in #6 above?

[sinc]

Here in Texas, the existing plats often determine the "direction" of the annotation of subsequent plats. Where a particular description on the plat may start in a comfortable counter-clockwise direction it may abruptly change "orientations" because it shares a leg with a previous plat that is already described by a different "orientation". 

Yeah, but Texas does lots of things in "unique" ways...   

Around here, we typically go clockwise around the lot.  That's it.  Or counter-clockwise is also acceptable, if less-common.  But it would be considered an error to all of a sudden reverse direction in a Property Description.

Oh, and for those anal-retentive types out there, there is actually no such thing as a Legal Description.  There is a Property Description, which may or may not be used in a Legal Document.  But there is nothing Legal about the Property Description itself.  However, this error is so common that you can say "Legal Description" anywhere and people will know what you mean.

[Dinosaur]

Quite true regarding "legal" descriptions sinc, but I have had surveys returned asking me to revise our header from "DESCRIPTION" to 'LEGAL DESCRIPTION" just to please the lawyers involved with the project.  The clockwise reading for a description is very nearly universal around here and I can only recall seeing 3 or 4 that did not follow that convention.  I have even been required (again by a lawyer on a mission) to add deed and measured verbiage to identical courses on a very crowded plat when the abutted existing boundary was going in the opposite quadrant.
Builders here are required to submit a "plot plan" as part of the package for a building permit. Certification requirements for this vary by jurisdiction from a wet stamp by a registered surveyor to none needed at all.  Some also require PE rather than the surveyor stamp.  All of them are now requiring something very close to an architectural survey in detail and a few are now requiring an as-built submittal before they will issue a certificate of occupancy.

[sinc]

I usually just use "Property Description".  It's still two words, so I don't know if anyone ever really even notices that it doesn't say "Legal Description".  No one has ever commented on it.

And around here, people seem to be capable of realizing that if the numbers are the same, it doesn't matter if it's N-E or S-W.  So we've never had to put two labels on a plat simply because they went in opposite directions.  We generally do that if there's a conflict, such as a Deed bearing of N45-00-00W and a measured of N45-02-45W, or something like that.  But not because the other plat described the course in the opposite direction.

The important thing around here is that the courses all read in the same direction around the parcel, either all clockwise or all counter-clockwise.  No reversing direction in the middle of the description, for any reason.  That's considered a pretty hard rule that is not broken.

Then, on subdivisions, we like to label all the interior lines with N-E or N-W bearings (nothing to the south), but that's just a preference.

[Mark]

Oh, and for those anal-retentive types out there, there is actually no such thing as a Legal Description.  There is a Property Description, which may or may not be used in a Legal Document.  But there is nothing Legal about the Property Description itself.  However, this error is so common that you can say "Legal Description" anywhere and people will know what you mean.

The description of the real property that gets recorded is called what?


added .... just checked, there are a LOT of "anal-retentive types" out there!

[cgrob]

I should have quoted myself better:

showing a dimension from a property line to an existing building is illegal in the state where I live unless prepared under a surveyors supervision

By showing the dimension, it implies you know the relationship between the property line and the building. My point is that only a licensed surveyor is qualified to make this determination.

You can have all the documents you want in the office, but without a proper survey you do not know where the lines fall on the ground.

[sinc]

The description of the real property that gets recorded is called what?

It depends on what sort of instrument you are recording.  Remember, the Property Description is simply one part of a legal instrument.  A Property Description all by itself is simply a Property Description; it must be attached to something else before it becomes a legal document.

It might be on a plat.  Or it might be on a deed.  Or an easement grant.  Or an ALTA, or monumented land survey, or title search, or any of a number of other legal documents.  But the description itself is just that - a Property Description.  The term "Legal Description" doesn't really make any sense.

But again, it's a term that is mis-used so frequently that if you use it, there will be no confusion.  Everyone will know what you mean.  In that sense, it's not like some other terms, where improper usage can radically change the meaning of your description, often in very bad ways.