Topic: Site property line layout?

[vinnyg]

Hi all,

Hey, I'm not into Civil Engineering at all but once in a while I have to layout property
lines for a project site. The few times I have had to layout a site plan, I have run into
problems getting the property lines to close.....in fact some of the lines will go in the
opposite direction they were intended to go after typing in the distance and bearings
per a particular survey. And sometimes the lines will go in a different direction. The following
is how I set up my drawing and the command I use:

1. Type units
2. Set units to engineering
3. Number of digits to right of decimal  =  (4)
4. Use surveyors units (N45D18'34"W)
5. Number of fractional places for display of angles  =  (4)
6. Direction for angle  =  E   (3 o'clock)
7. Angles measured clockwise?   (N)

(command)  Line
Pick start point
type  @230'<N84D22'05"W

I have used this in the past without problems, but now seems as if dosen't work anymore

I'm using R14

Any thoughts on this??


vinny

[mjfarrell]

Vinny the challenge is that sometimes the bearings on the site lines are annotated to match a legal description.
And thus sometimes you draw a bearing that is labeled N 89 56 32 W, however the line is actually needing to be drawn SE.
Keep in mind the 1st quadrant is NE bearings, up and to the right, however should your line be needing to go down and to the left, you will need to enter that same bearing as SW to get the line going in the proper direction.

[Greg B]

Vinny the challenge is that sometimes the bearings on the site lines are annotated to match a legal description.
And thus sometimes you draw a bearing that is labeled N 89 56 32 W, however the line is actually needing to be drawn SE.
Keep in mind the 1st quadrant is NE bearings, up and to the right, however should your line be needing to go down and to the left, you will need to enter that same bearing as SW to get the line going in the proper direction.

This is one of the best explanations that I read so far!  Thank you!


BTW - I have yet to find surveyors coordinates that close, spot on!

[mjfarrell]

Thanks you sir, that would be the benefit of four semesters of Plane Surveying and several years actually working on field crews.

[alanjt]

BTW - I have yet to find surveyors coordinates that close, spot on!

i feel your pain there (i plotted 8 legals from a surveyor for a limited partition and not one of them closed - that's just crappy workmanship and not checking your legals after writing them), but i can't say that i've never come across surveyor's noting being able to close.

[Dinosaur]

BTW - I have yet to find surveyors coordinates that close, spot on!

i feel your pain there (i plotted 8 legals from a surveyor for a limited partition and not one of them closed - that's just crappy workmanship and not checking your legals after writing them), but i can't say that i've never come across surveyor's noting being able to close.

Not exactly true . . . rounding errors that are not a factor in a small part or a building WILL show up mathematically on a survey where lengths may span a half mile or more. . . unless you are talking a relative large number say in the range of 2/100 of a foot bust on a small lot survey.  Surveyors must FIRST measure the distance and angle measurements between any existing corners - modern survey methods measure these plus or minus 0.005 feet and within 1/2 second and there can be significant accumulated error within these tolerances.  Given the distances involved, this precision is not really visible in most cases.  A legal survey will almost certainly have this rounding error accumulate through the boundary courses.  Often a closure report is required to document that the accumulated error falls within legal requirements.

[CADaver]

(command)  Line
Pick start point
type  @230'<N84D22'05"W

I have used this in the past without problems, but now seems as if dosen't work anymore

What "exactly" didn't work?  The above sequence "worked" in my R9, R2002, and R2008, in that it drew a line 230' long at that angle.

[vinnyg]

CADaver,

What I mean is when I start a property line at a given point where two lines of the
enclosed property come together and after typing the distance and bearing in sometimes
the line will go in the opposite direction that it is supposed to go and when I type in the
next distance and bearing, it will probably not go in the direction it should according to
the surveyor's plot that I am using. Make sense?

vinny

[CADaver]

CADaver,

What I mean is when I start a property line at a given point where two lines of the
enclosed property come together and after typing the distance and bearing in sometimes
the line will go in the opposite direction that it is supposed to go and when I type in the
next distance and bearing, it will probably not go in the direction it should according to
the surveyor's plot that I am using. Make sense?

vinny

Depending on the state you're in, and a dozen other factors, see Michael Farrel's reply.  What you're seeing is a difference between a "Legal Description" and a "Survey Plat".  The "Legal Description" "should" proceed in an orderly fashion to "close" a circuit, (usually in a counter-clockwise direction.)  The Plat can be quite a different story, depending on where you are.

Here in Texas, the existing plats often determine the "direction" of the annotation of subsequent plats. Where a particular description on the plat may start in a comfortable counter-clockwise direction it may abruptly change "orientations" because it shares a leg with a previous plat that is already described by a different "orientation".  Sometimes, depending on where you are, the plat line will fall on a pre-described section line and will assume the description of the section line.  And sometimes it seems that the recording surveyor might have had a "liquid" lunch prior to completing his task.

I usually find it best to sit down with the plat/description and roughly hand sketch it making sure the directions form a circuit.

[vinnyg]

CADaver,

Thanks for the info. It just sometimes I don't have a "legal description" and a
"surveyor's Plat" at the same time to go by. Usually I only have a "plat". But the
info about laying out the lines in a counterclockwise direction will probably help me
in the future. Thanks

vinny

[cgrob]

once in a while I have to layout property lines for a project site. The few times I have had to layout a site plan, I have run into problems getting the property lines to close...

sometimes I don't have a "legal description" and a "surveyor's Plat" at the same time to go by. Usually I only have a "plat"

I don't know what your drawings are used for, but you are treading on dangerous ground if you are not working under a licensed surveyor. Simply showing a dimension from a property line to an existing building is illegal in the state where I live unless prepared under a surveyors supervision.

Where did the plat come from? How do you know if it is right? Without the legal description, and knowing how to interpret the description, you cannot verify the plat.

Has the property been surveyed, position of monuments determined, compared to record, and any discrepancies been resolved? If you go forward with design, you might get an unwelcome surprise when it comes time to build and the lot is really smaller than you thought...


modern survey methods measure these plus or minus 0.005 feet and [angles] within 1/2 second and there can be significant accumulated error within these tolerances

Modern survey instruments can indeed be this accurate, but the rodman (and instrument man) is not. You cannot hold a prism pole perfectly vertical, a good rodman can consistently hold the rod over a point to within 0.02 feet horizontal accuracy under good conditions, 0.005 feet is simply not realistic.

The errors in general do not accumulate, they are random unless you have a systematic error in the measuring instruments.

For instance, draw a line on a piece of paper.
Now measure it with a scale that has very fine gradations, like 1"=80' engineer scale.
Record the distance. Repeat measuring, say 100 times.
Sometimes you measure too short, sometimes too long. If you average all the measurements, you are closer to the true measure of the line, not farther. The random errors don't add up, they tend to cancel out.

A legal survey will almost certainly have this rounding error accumulate through the boundary courses

The mathematical closure of a parcel is calculated in the office, not measured in the field. The parcel should close within tolerance, or whoever is checking the description before recording is not paying enough attention. If you find a description which does not close, it should be brought to the attention of the surveyor to resolve what should be done.

(I work as a surveying technician)

C. Roberts

[vinnyg]

cgrob,

 I don't want you to misunderstand me. Usually I have a "Surveyors's Plat" to go by. I just sometimes don't
have a "legal description" to go along with it. Most of the time I am receiving the information from a third
party instead of from the Surveyor. And most often I am only doing preliminary "Architectural Site
Plans" and would never send anything out without a stamped plat from a licensed surveyor. Thanks for
your comments.

vinny

[Josh Nieman]

Providing a dimension from site property line to building isn't illegal in Louisiana.  It's common site plan practice.  Doing the actual stake-out has to be done by a LS, but providing design of easements, setbacks, etc is well within the range of a civil engineer in the states we work in.

[cgrob]

Maybe I'm just being too cautious, but where I work (California) everyone seems to want a McMansion, and they build right up to the setback limits so there is no room to wiggle.

Recently we were ready to stake a house, got the architect plans, drew the building footprint. Doesn't fit within setbacks. Called the architect, turns out they were using the property assessors map for the lot dimensions. Let's just say there was a lot of last minute running around to address the issues - of course the building crew was on site ready to start, they had to wait until it got straightened out.

So then the finger pointing starts, somehow we got less than our contracted fee even though we did everything right.

Oh well that's life I guess.

C. Roberts

[cgrob]

Providing a dimension from site property line to building isn't illegal in Louisiana.  It's common site plan practice.

Note that above I wrote "dimension ... to an existing building".

Showing a dimension to a proposed bldg. is no problem for site design.

C. Roberts

[Josh Nieman]

Providing a dimension from site property line to building isn't illegal in Louisiana.  It's common site plan practice.

Note that above I wrote "dimension ... to an existing building".

Showing a dimension to a proposed bldg. is no problem for site design.

C. Roberts

I don't believe the difference matters around here, for that, either.

[mjfarrell]

I'm with Josh on this one.
Dimensions shown to existing buildings from the lot line is common on many site surveys, and A.L.T.A.s.
Showing the same dimensions to a proposed building is also common, and not 'illegal'.  The true issue here would be the accuracy, or better the precision of those dimensions. So if the survey or cadd technician doesn't use proper care to insure that the dimensions are placed perpendicular to the calculated lot line (not assumed); and those dimensions are true therein lies the potential legal problem of encroaching on either A)setback lines, or B) adjacent property owners parcels comes into play.  I have worked with individuals in the past who did not understand that the survey drawing is in fact a legal instrument and all dimensions and measurements shown must be as accurate and as precise as is practicable.  It would almost suggest that failing to place the building dimensions relative to a calculated lot line, would be the negligent act, not the inclusion of same. Given that B) the lot lines were properly surveyed and adjusted, and B) the dimensions were correct.

From ALTA requirements:http://www.trgpsc.com/download/ALTASurveyReq.pdf

6. Identify, and show or note, the Zoning Classification and the name of that district, the
permitted uses, setback, height, bulk, density and parking restrictions of record or
disclosed by applicable zoning or building codes (in addition to those recorded in
subdivision maps). Also list the source of your information, that is, to whom you talked
to at the zoning authority, their title, address and phone number. It is understood that the
surveyor will state information and facts of record and will show all plot able items on
the survey.

And while not specifically called out; how else would the surveyor note the facts of record as stated above without showing a few dimensions to tie the building to the site lines, and easements as required in #6 above?

[sinc]

Here in Texas, the existing plats often determine the "direction" of the annotation of subsequent plats. Where a particular description on the plat may start in a comfortable counter-clockwise direction it may abruptly change "orientations" because it shares a leg with a previous plat that is already described by a different "orientation". 

Yeah, but Texas does lots of things in "unique" ways...   

Around here, we typically go clockwise around the lot.  That's it.  Or counter-clockwise is also acceptable, if less-common.  But it would be considered an error to all of a sudden reverse direction in a Property Description.

Oh, and for those anal-retentive types out there, there is actually no such thing as a Legal Description.  There is a Property Description, which may or may not be used in a Legal Document.  But there is nothing Legal about the Property Description itself.  However, this error is so common that you can say "Legal Description" anywhere and people will know what you mean.

[Dinosaur]

Quite true regarding "legal" descriptions sinc, but I have had surveys returned asking me to revise our header from "DESCRIPTION" to 'LEGAL DESCRIPTION" just to please the lawyers involved with the project.  The clockwise reading for a description is very nearly universal around here and I can only recall seeing 3 or 4 that did not follow that convention.  I have even been required (again by a lawyer on a mission) to add deed and measured verbiage to identical courses on a very crowded plat when the abutted existing boundary was going in the opposite quadrant.
Builders here are required to submit a "plot plan" as part of the package for a building permit. Certification requirements for this vary by jurisdiction from a wet stamp by a registered surveyor to none needed at all.  Some also require PE rather than the surveyor stamp.  All of them are now requiring something very close to an architectural survey in detail and a few are now requiring an as-built submittal before they will issue a certificate of occupancy.

[sinc]

I usually just use "Property Description".  It's still two words, so I don't know if anyone ever really even notices that it doesn't say "Legal Description".  No one has ever commented on it.

And around here, people seem to be capable of realizing that if the numbers are the same, it doesn't matter if it's N-E or S-W.  So we've never had to put two labels on a plat simply because they went in opposite directions.  We generally do that if there's a conflict, such as a Deed bearing of N45-00-00W and a measured of N45-02-45W, or something like that.  But not because the other plat described the course in the opposite direction.

The important thing around here is that the courses all read in the same direction around the parcel, either all clockwise or all counter-clockwise.  No reversing direction in the middle of the description, for any reason.  That's considered a pretty hard rule that is not broken.

Then, on subdivisions, we like to label all the interior lines with N-E or N-W bearings (nothing to the south), but that's just a preference.

[Mark]

Oh, and for those anal-retentive types out there, there is actually no such thing as a Legal Description.  There is a Property Description, which may or may not be used in a Legal Document.  But there is nothing Legal about the Property Description itself.  However, this error is so common that you can say "Legal Description" anywhere and people will know what you mean.

The description of the real property that gets recorded is called what?


added .... just checked, there are a LOT of "anal-retentive types" out there!

[cgrob]

I should have quoted myself better:

showing a dimension from a property line to an existing building is illegal in the state where I live unless prepared under a surveyors supervision

By showing the dimension, it implies you know the relationship between the property line and the building. My point is that only a licensed surveyor is qualified to make this determination.

You can have all the documents you want in the office, but without a proper survey you do not know where the lines fall on the ground.

[sinc]

The description of the real property that gets recorded is called what?

It depends on what sort of instrument you are recording.  Remember, the Property Description is simply one part of a legal instrument.  A Property Description all by itself is simply a Property Description; it must be attached to something else before it becomes a legal document.

It might be on a plat.  Or it might be on a deed.  Or an easement grant.  Or an ALTA, or monumented land survey, or title search, or any of a number of other legal documents.  But the description itself is just that - a Property Description.  The term "Legal Description" doesn't really make any sense.

But again, it's a term that is mis-used so frequently that if you use it, there will be no confusion.  Everyone will know what you mean.  In that sense, it's not like some other terms, where improper usage can radically change the meaning of your description, often in very bad ways.