Author Topic: How flexible is Revit's spread across disciplines?  (Read 10528 times)

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Josh Nieman

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How flexible is Revit's spread across disciplines?
« on: February 28, 2008, 09:48:13 AM »
I mean this in two ways.

1)

My company's name is C.A.S.E., Inc. which stands for Civil And Structural Engineers, Inc (give them a break, they left their original company and started this one over a weekend) and we do mainly structural work of a variety... tower crane foundations, communication tower design, miscellaneous skids, containers, spreader bars, foundations of all kinds, sound wall framing, retaining walls etc etc... random occasional civil/site work, and a good deal of building developments ranging from Commercial, Multi-story residential, Industrial/Factory, and miscellaneous offshore-serving onshore facilities.

My concern is that if we buy Revit Structure, we'd have nothing to help us with the architectural development.  We wouldn't reap the benefits of BIM in regards to building design for our industrial, commercial, condo type buildings.  My concern is also that if we get Revit Architecture, that we would not be able to use it for Foundation, framing plans, detailing, etc.

If we invest in a BIM program such as Revit, I am very concerned that we would have to buy BOTH of them, or rely on Autocad like we do now, for one side or the other.  I don't think we'd FULLY convert to Revit, because some of our simple, simple items such as tower crane foundations, comm tower design, etc, is so automated and quick that it would hardly be worth overhauling it.

I'm worried about our building design.  What are your opinions on this situation?

2)  If we buy Revit... well the electrical firm we work with has Building Systems... would they mesh well?  Our mechanical guy for HVAC/Plumbing uses Autocad and I doubt he'd upgrade soon, but who knows... he may have other architects or something pressuring him to upgrade.  What programs work well with Revit... just how universally BIMmable is this program?  Would we get any BIM capabilities out of it at ALL, or would it merely be used as a parametric modeler?

It's hard to find this information anywhere, because all I can find on BIM is how magical, wonderful, panacea, universal, save-all, blah blah blah sunshine-up-my-rear-end, sales lies, empty promises, blah blah blah... it's impossible to get good information.

Thanks.

Bob Garner

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Re: How flexible is Revit's spread across disciplines?
« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2008, 10:01:58 AM »
I think Revit (B.I.M.) is really only benificial to the "team".  I can't see where it would help an individual discipline working essentially alone an a project.  I see it primarily as a team coordination tool.  Someone said the only person that really benifits from B.I.M. is the owner, who gets a better (ideally) coordinated project.

We're structural, too, and with the subconsultants we seem to wind up with, they could never handle B.I.M.  Hell, we can't get their conventional cad drawings on time.

But I like the principle of B.I.M.  I think it will be ten years before we get a truly functional and useful B.I.M. product.  Yeah, it's all smoke and mirrors now.

Bob G.

Bob Wahr

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Re: How flexible is Revit's spread across disciplines?
« Reply #2 on: February 28, 2008, 10:21:40 AM »
Get Revit Structure Suite, not just Revit Structure.  That gets you autocad and RS for about the same price as one.  Get Revit Structure, not Revit Architectural, you can do more architectural with Structure than you can do Structural with Architecture.  Your model should integrate fine with the EE, but so what.  How often do you even look at electrical when doing structural design.  With rare exceptions, electrical is light, flexible, and can go wherever it will fit.  Then again, then don't really need to look at structural to put big floopy arcs in the general vicinity of where they think they might want conduit.  Revit Structure is supposed to recognize ADT objects and use them.  I've seen that demoed but haven't tried it myself.  It is also supposed to be fairly easy to give intelligence to a 2d acad floor plan but again, demoed not tested.  Getting the Suite gives you both programs so you can do different projects with different programs, or different elements of a project with different programs.  For example, we have a fairly extensive detail library so the best use of our time and project budget is to detail in autocad, then bring the details into Revit for use in the sheets.

Josh Nieman

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Re: How flexible is Revit's spread across disciplines?
« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2008, 10:24:12 AM »
Oh yea, I forgot you have to get the "Suite" to get Autocad with it... yea we'd definitely go that route... well worth the little extra dollars.

I'm just worried because we've started to do some extensive architectural... I mean building sections, construction details, sill/jamb/header details, all that stuff... I don't have an extensive library for that type of stuff yet... how much architectural CAN Structure do?

Guest

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Re: How flexible is Revit's spread across disciplines?
« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2008, 10:34:42 AM »
This is probably why Autodesk purchased Navisworks - take multiple file types, throw them into one program and see where your issues are.  Navisworks can spit out a collision report for you so you can see where a beam intersects with your ductwork or pipe.

You can export from Revit to DWG and import a DWG into Revit, but you won't get the reporting/collision detection tools in AutoCAD or Revit like you can with Navisworks!

Josh Nieman

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Re: How flexible is Revit's spread across disciplines?
« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2008, 10:39:45 AM »
Yea I saw that they bought Navisworks and thought that was great news.  I don't see us going to BIM immediately, but I sure as heck want to keep my finger on the pulse, because I think it's a great tool. 

Bob Wahr

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Re: How flexible is Revit's spread across disciplines?
« Reply #6 on: February 28, 2008, 10:41:41 AM »
You can pretty much do whatever architectural you need to with the right families, AFAIK.

Matt, Revit will do collision detection and reporting.

Josh Nieman

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Re: How flexible is Revit's spread across disciplines?
« Reply #7 on: February 28, 2008, 11:15:18 AM »
You can pretty much do whatever architectural you need to with the right families, AFAIK.

Matt, Revit will do collision detection and reporting.

I can create a wall with 6" wood studs, 16" o.c., R19 Batt insulation, with CDX/Plywood sheathing, brick ties, a 2" air gap, and brick veneer and then show sections, details, etc?

If so... sweeeeeet.  That's probably the most demanding of my needs.

Bob Wahr

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Re: How flexible is Revit's spread across disciplines?
« Reply #8 on: February 28, 2008, 11:46:48 AM »
this was just a quicky but 6" wood studs ply sheathing 2" air and brick in section

Guest

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Re: How flexible is Revit's spread across disciplines?
« Reply #9 on: February 28, 2008, 11:47:19 AM »
You can pretty much do whatever architectural you need to with the right families, AFAIK.

Matt, Revit will do collision detection and reporting.

Oh, I know it can... It's my understanding (from what I've been shown and told) that the reporting and detection in Navisworks is much better than that of Revit.  That's all I was trying to say.

Maverick®

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Re: How flexible is Revit's spread across disciplines?
« Reply #10 on: February 28, 2008, 12:02:06 PM »
I can create a wall with 6" wood studs, 16" o.c., R19 Batt insulation, with CDX/Plywood sheathing, brick ties, a 2" air gap, and brick veneer and then show sections, details, etc?

:-D

Josh Nieman

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Re: How flexible is Revit's spread across disciplines?
« Reply #11 on: February 28, 2008, 12:02:50 PM »
Bob, you're awesome.  Thanks much.

I think when the new release of Revit Structure comes out, I may download a demo and see if I can get it to work.  That or I'll just put it on the extra machine and play on that one.

Josh Nieman

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Re: How flexible is Revit's spread across disciplines?
« Reply #12 on: February 28, 2008, 12:05:49 PM »
I can create a wall with 6" wood studs, 16" o.c., R19 Batt insulation, with CDX/Plywood sheathing, brick ties, a 2" air gap, and brick veneer and then show sections, details, etc?
:-D

Nice!

I've seen Softplan in it's earlier days (I think earlier... around 2002-2003) and it was really impressive then, and I was checking out their website and such after seeing some of the stuff you'd posted... man that's a cool program.

But can you do a corrogated metal SIP deck with 6" concrete floor 12'-0" AFF, over 12k3 metal joists anchored in a 12" CMU 2-hour rated fire wall within a typical pre-engineered metal building with batt insulation, 8" girts, 8" purlins, and "R" Panel sheeting?

Maverick®

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Re: How flexible is Revit's spread across disciplines?
« Reply #13 on: February 28, 2008, 12:15:24 PM »

But can you do a corrogated metal SIP deck with 6" concrete floor 12'-0" AFF, over 12k3 metal joists anchored in a 12" CMU 2-hour rated fire wall within a typical pre-engineered metal building with batt insulation, 8" girts, 8" purlins, and "R" Panel sheeting?

I don't know what some of that is but if you give me a section I may be able to.  You cannot spec floor systems like you can walls.  I'll bet I could create a passable 3d created section view with a few work arounds though.  :wink:

I've wanted to have a look @ Revit since it came out.... how many years ago?  It was supposed to look like a fairly good competitor to SP in the residential market.   But as of yet, I haven't.

Josh Nieman

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Re: How flexible is Revit's spread across disciplines?
« Reply #14 on: February 28, 2008, 12:35:46 PM »
It's just a metal/concrete decking system.  Formed metal (just to add stiffness) with concrete poured right on top of it.  You typically weld that metal deck on top of steel joists or attach it somehow to your joists, depending on what kind of joists they are.  12k3 is just a 12" metal joist, the k3 refers to it's strength somehow.

I was mainly curious if Softplan was decent for more industrial applications like a pre-engineered metal building that has a metal/wood stud buildout on a concrete flooring.

Basically the section for that floor is:

|________________________________________|
\                        (CONCRETE)                        \
\__       __       __       __       __       __       __\
|    \__/     \__/     \__/    \__/    \__/     \__/    | <---- METAL SIP DECK (Stay In Place)


Just was on my mind because I did a site visit to one the other day to inspect some fire wall crap.

Bob Wahr

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Re: How flexible is Revit's spread across disciplines?
« Reply #15 on: February 28, 2008, 12:51:17 PM »
I was wondering  SIP to me is Structural Insulated Panel, not composite deck.

Josh Nieman

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Re: How flexible is Revit's spread across disciplines?
« Reply #16 on: February 28, 2008, 01:50:14 PM »
I was wondering  SIP to me is Structural Insulated Panel, not composite deck.

Yea, that's one of the terms I hate because both are very common, but the manufacturer's, suppliers, contractors, and such also refer to that deck as a SIP system.  *shrug*  I tend to write it out to avoid confusion...because it confuses me sometimes, hehh.

Maverick®

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Re: How flexible is Revit's spread across disciplines?
« Reply #17 on: February 28, 2008, 03:59:10 PM »
I would have to make something up for that SIP floor....

Lessee..... 1 1/2" tall joist w/ bridging......  :-D 

More work than it's worth.    :-)

Josh Nieman

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Re: How flexible is Revit's spread across disciplines?
« Reply #18 on: February 28, 2008, 04:02:02 PM »
I would think that if Softplan could expand into a more commercial end, they would nab quite a number of users and sell some seats for sure.  I know I was pretty impressed with Softplan... *shrug*

architecture68-raff

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Re: How flexible is Revit's spread across disciplines?
« Reply #19 on: February 28, 2008, 05:12:33 PM »
I would think that if Softplan could expand into a more commercial end, they would nab quite a number of users and sell some seats for sure.  I know I was pretty impressed with Softplan... *shrug*

We were impressed by the demos of Softplan too...'till we bought a seat of it that is.  We do mostly large-scale custom residential (typically 10,000-25,000 sq. feet) and found it too limiting in customization and certain text related areas.  In the end, we just couldn't get plans to look the way we wanted them to.  Granted, that was v11, and maybe those limitations have been addressed.  Props to Mav and others like him who are able to make it work well...it is impressive in certain areas.
Chicago, Illinois
ADT 2005, Revit Architecture 2009, Sketchup 7

Maverick®

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Re: How flexible is Revit's spread across disciplines?
« Reply #20 on: February 28, 2008, 05:43:22 PM »

We were impressed by the demos of Softplan too...'till we bought a seat of it that is.  We do mostly large-scale custom residential (typically 10,000-25,000 sq. feet) and found it too limiting in customization and certain text related areas.  In the end, we just couldn't get plans to look the way we wanted them to.  Granted, that was v11, and maybe those limitations have been addressed.  Props to Mav and others like him who are able to make it work well...it is impressive in certain areas.

I have seen a lot of comments on the SP forum from Acad users going to SP.  Most were not happy.  I haven't used AC since college, v12 I think.  It's a different way of drawing from what I understand.  The users that have posted questions have usually been able to do what they wanted but it was just....hard for them to change. 

AFAIK there is no customization in SP.  I have yet to come across a residential project I couldn't model but that doesn't mean they aren't out there.  Granted, doing some of it required workarounds and such but it looks like Acad has it's share of them as well.  Of course I know SP users in my area that don't use half of what it can do.

V14 is coming out next month.  Some pretty cool additions to the program as well as a number of "fixes".

Josh Nieman

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Re: How flexible is Revit's spread across disciplines?
« Reply #21 on: February 28, 2008, 05:47:58 PM »
I think what I like about it is a lot of the stuff that Autocad Architecture does, as well.  Obviously the price tag for an Autocad vertical is pretty steep, but there's also those other benefits to working with an Autodesk product that make it worth it as well. 

So yea, Softplan is pretty awesome, but in the end if we needed an architectural product... well... I'd probably go to Revit, but if it Autocad Architecture would be the 2nd up.

I'm fine with a "new way of drawing"... I had to overcome that hurdle when I learned Solidworks and Inventor... that was a mindhex.  Going from starting a line command, telling it HOW LONG, and THEN what direction... to drawing a SKETCH (literally just a generic shape that's kind of like your end result) and THEN telling it lengths, angles, etc.... completely backwards... took a bit to get used to.


chance

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Re: How flexible is Revit's spread across disciplines?
« Reply #22 on: July 02, 2008, 02:13:31 PM »
To answer the question...thank god...for IFC.....
Architect here, working in very Large E

I have been converting Frame work files...to Triforma V8....then exporting IFC...importing IFC and then working...perfect so far....
then convert back to Microstation J using a 3d seed file to get into SmartPlant Review....

does that help

jnieman

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Re: How flexible is Revit's spread across disciplines?
« Reply #23 on: July 02, 2008, 02:20:39 PM »
lol

that flew pretty much over my head (I'm the OP, btw, just in a second pair of shoes)

I still like Revit, but taken a bit of a different philosophy towards my job, and resigned to just making the best with what I got, and worrying less about software.

chance

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Re: How flexible is Revit's spread across disciplines?
« Reply #24 on: July 02, 2008, 02:21:21 PM »
This is probably why Autodesk purchased Navisworks - take multiple file types

I think they bought Naviswork and Greenbuilding Studio to slow down the popularity of Graphisoft....both of these products worked seamlessly with Archicad....and so far in my own personal experience, I am finding that Archicad is far superior than Revit...unfortunately I am stuck with autodesk

Dilbert

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Re: How flexible is Revit's spread across disciplines?
« Reply #25 on: July 05, 2008, 10:01:01 PM »
I think they bought Naviswork and Greenbuilding Studio to slow down the popularity of Graphisoft....both of these products worked seamlessly with Archicad....and so far in my own personal experience, I am finding that Archicad is far superior than Revit...unfortunately I am stuck with autodesk

Traditionally, Autodesk doesn't purchase software to stifle the competition, they purchase it to incorporate its technology and grow its profit margin with a diversified product line while minimizing start-up and development costs.  This might stifle the competition, but that's just a bi-product of the business decision. The purchase of Navisworks made sense because a common gripe was a lack of interoperability between Autodesk products. Their "green build" purchases are to get their foot in the door in a market segment vital to architecture but an area Autodesk was far behind in (perhaps not even in the game) in terms of technology. It also looks good from a marketing standpoint for everyone from the architect to the client.

Ultimately Autodesk is trying to fortify its position in North America as well as grow its business in Asia (obviously a huge market segment). To do this they need to diversify to compete with the competition.  Thus they are growing the Revit base to leverage the Revit data across a multitude of products that many industries need. To do this they need Navisworks, FM Desktop, and a variety of other programs to leverage the Revit data to make Revit the "AutoCAD" (in terms of usage) of the Architectural segment with each program requiring the other (or working best with them) to produce further growth and profits.   

CADaver

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Re: How flexible is Revit's spread across disciplines?
« Reply #26 on: July 07, 2008, 08:05:05 AM »
NavisWorks came to the attention of corporate Autodesk when they discovered that over half their own employees had Navisworks running on company machines.  Like most of us, after a quick test run they were impressed with the product.  We've automated our DRI output from SmartPlant review and conversion to Navisworks NWD then include our civil models from Autodesk products.  That way we can use the free Navisworks viewer to view 'Review' entire models from AutoCAD, SmartPlant 3D and PDS.

jjs

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Re: How flexible is Revit's spread across disciplines?
« Reply #27 on: October 06, 2008, 11:11:10 AM »
Revit electrical is not ready for prime time. You have to fake conduit with pipes or duct. Can't do 240V 3P delta systems. Single line diagrams are not done. They bundle it with Autocad for a reason.

That is the only way they can get you to beta test it for free for them.