Author Topic: Who Owns the Files?  (Read 5456 times)

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vinnyg

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Who Owns the Files?
« on: August 22, 2007, 04:21:26 PM »
Hi all,

O.K., so an Architect designs and puts on Acad the drawings. Who owns the Acad
files. The client paid big money to have his project designed. Isn't the client entitled to
a copy of those files at least? What's your thoughts and/or experience with this situation?

vinny

M-dub

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Re: Who Owns the Files?
« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2007, 04:25:51 PM »
The client paid big money to have his project designed. Isn't the client entitled to
a copy of those files at least?

One word:

Yes!


We've been in the same situation as your client before.

Guest

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Re: Who Owns the Files?
« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2007, 04:30:09 PM »
I think it would probably depend on the wording in the contract.  Most of the time, our "design" and/or "contract" drawings never make it to the client.  They might end up with some as-builts (compiled by us) with information from the job site.

For example... if Joe Schmoe is doing the electrical ductbanks for a site, we'll typically get a drawing from him that has some spot elevations (top of ductbank) and shots showing the width when it's encased in concrete.  Then we might get some stuff from John Doe about the water line.  We'll then take the info from both parties and mash it all together and make it look "pretty" since they'll most likely be using different standards, if any.

Josh Nieman

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Re: Who Owns the Files?
« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2007, 04:32:20 PM »
Hi all,

O.K., so an Architect designs and puts on Acad the drawings. Who owns the Acad
files. The client paid big money to have his project designed. Isn't the client entitled to
a copy of those files at least? What's your thoughts and/or experience with this situation?

vinny

Depends on the contract.  Our contract states that the deliverables will be sets of paper of whatever size is appropriate to the specific job... usually we specify that we will provide 3 sets of 24x36 and a set of 11x17s... it varies depending on client, but by default we don't supply .dwg files, and hesitate to do so.  There's only one client that demanded the source files for their project, and we were ok with that.


Keith™

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Re: Who Owns the Files?
« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2007, 04:33:45 PM »
It is a tough call for some, however, so far as I am concerned, the client does not own the file and has no right to the electronic drawing. If the client wishes to have an electronic copy of the drawing, then I will provide one, but it will have to be spelled out in the contract for services.

When I am hired for a project, I am hired to provide a set of plans, when the client receives their plans, the service has been fulfilled.
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vinnyg

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Re: Who Owns the Files?
« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2007, 04:38:39 PM »
So, if said client wants to do remodeling of the initial project somewhere down the
road, he will have to start at square one to do Acad drawings, even if he offers to pay
extra for the cad files?

vinny

Keith™

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Re: Who Owns the Files?
« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2007, 04:43:49 PM »
So, if said client wants to do remodeling of the initial project somewhere down the
road, he will have to start at square one to do Acad drawings, even if he offers to pay
extra for the cad files?

vinny

No, if he pays extra for the cad files or has negotiated the cad files as part of the contract, then he will get them. If not, I don't give them.

The simple reason is liability

a) I draw a set of plans to meet all codes and requirements
b) contractor decides that he doesn't need that big of a beam, has his guy change the beam size, he leaves my name on the plans
c) beam fails, I have to spend money defending myself

Nope ... not gonna happen
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Guest

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Re: Who Owns the Files?
« Reply #7 on: August 22, 2007, 04:44:39 PM »
So, if said client wants to do remodeling of the initial project somewhere down the
road, he will have to start at square one to do Acad drawings, even if he offers to pay
extra for the cad files?

vinny

If its not written out in the original contract, or unless they come to some sort of agreement, then, yeah, he'd probably be SOL.  However, I personally don't see that happening much.  I've seen a lot of companies give copies of files (as-builts) simply because it's good for the business relationship.  Maybe get the next big job.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2007, 04:50:02 PM by Matt W »

Keith™

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Re: Who Owns the Files?
« Reply #8 on: August 22, 2007, 04:46:12 PM »
Oh .. nevermind most clients of mine (homeowners) will not have a way to use the files anyway
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sinc

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Re: Who Owns the Files?
« Reply #9 on: August 22, 2007, 04:50:49 PM »
It is a tough call for some, however, so far as I am concerned, the client does not own the file and has no right to the electronic drawing. If the client wishes to have an electronic copy of the drawing, then I will provide one, but it will have to be spelled out in the contract for services.

When I am hired for a project, I am hired to provide a set of plans, when the client receives their plans, the service has been fulfilled.

We're the exact opposite.  As a survey firm, we explicitly state in our contract that we expect to get electronic files for all construction surveying.  If we do not, then the client must pay additional charges to recreate the files, if it is even possible.  So far, this threat has been enough to ensure that we always get electronic files (except for in one instance, where the client paid to have us recreate everything).  We also need the signed paper copies, and the signed paper copies are what holds in the case of dispute.  So we must be careful not to blindly use the electronics, but it can save considerable time, and therefore saves the client considerable expense.

Similarly, if we do a design survey, we always make electronic files available to the client.  We would much prefer that the engineers use our electronics, rather than go through the error-prone procedure of trying to recreate files from the printed copies.  It saves considerable headache if everyone involved in a project uses the exact same base linework, etc., rather than constantly ending up with slightly-different versions where lines sit hundredths apart from one DWG to the other.  We include disclaimers that we consider the only binding document to be the printed and signed drawings, but we also make the electronics available for use.

One of the things that we find very disturbing is the growing trend for plans to not contain enough information to recreate them without the original electronic files.  We think this is a very poor tendency, brought on by laziness, but it's getting to be more and more common.  It's now rare that we ever see a set of plans we could actually recreate from scratch if we had to.  And periodically, we have had people resist sending us their electronics.  So far, whenever that's happened, we pound the source with questions that illustrate that we CANNOT rebuild the drawings from the issued set of plans, and insist that they reissue a new set of plans that we can actually use.  And so far, when given the choice of sending us electronics or reissuing plans, they've chosen to send us electronics every time.

The funny thing we've noticed, though, is that whenever we have a really hard time getting the electronic files, they always turn out to be real garbage when we finally see them...   :-D

Arizona

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Re: Who Owns the Files?
« Reply #10 on: August 22, 2007, 05:41:47 PM »
As a company that utilizes the services of many contractors, we typically require the electronic files.
This is written into the contract with the standard deliverables stating our specific requirements (including any Cad specific issues/standards, etc...). Companies are given (approx.) 3 attempts to get it right or they are removed from the bidding list. As a customer, we have specific demands or we go elsewhere. So remember who pays your bills... the customer.
Make certain your contract clearly states your conditions and theirs, this way there aren't the hidden surprises. Which in some cases are simply better to give in to, for purely business reasons. Word of mouth travels very quickly in a small world. :-)

Unless you have customers lined up out the door, be willing to negotiate to keep that customer.

JMO.. :-)

Josh Nieman

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Re: Who Owns the Files?
« Reply #11 on: August 22, 2007, 05:54:56 PM »
Oh, yea, if you're a subcontractor and the guys you got the job from ask for your electronic files... I can definitely see that you would need them .dwgs!  We act the same way with our consultant subs... they go both ways, we send them dwg's that are required to work from, and they send us their when it's necessary.

I was just thinking of the end-client, only..

but either way it's all in the contract demands, still.

M-dub

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Re: Who Owns the Files?
« Reply #12 on: August 22, 2007, 06:01:39 PM »
I should have mentioned that I do agree that it should be in the original contract with the vendor.  If electronic files are not requested at project closeout, I blame the engineers for that.

Greg B

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Re: Who Owns the Files?
« Reply #13 on: August 23, 2007, 09:28:01 AM »
You guys realize that pretty much each time you say it's written into the contract.

The electronic file is owned by the architect.  It is the choice of the architect to contract/give/sell that file or not.

Josh Nieman

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Re: Who Owns the Files?
« Reply #14 on: August 23, 2007, 09:35:02 AM »
You guys realize that pretty much each time you say it's written into the contract.

The electronic file is owned by the architect.  It is the choice of the architect to contract/give/sell that file or not.

We don't have architects in our jobs 99% of the time :)

(not everyone is as lucky as us, I know)
*runs*

M-dub

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Re: Who Owns the Files?
« Reply #15 on: August 23, 2007, 09:38:56 AM »
Well, for us, it's not house plans that we're getting... they're wiring diagrams and cabinet layouts and this stuff is never the "Set it and Forget it" type thing.  Modifications, additions and relocations are always being made and getting the drawings makes life so much easier.  Sure, we COULD redraw everything from scratch, but come on, give your (no on in particular) head a shake and think about what makes sense here!

vinnyg

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Re: Who Owns the Files?
« Reply #16 on: August 23, 2007, 09:56:02 AM »
Maybe I didn't make myself clear enough. The Architect created the drawing files on Cad 10 years ago
and now the Owner wants to make modifications to the building(s) without having to recreate the
Cad drawings from scratch. It is of course (without saying) that it would be a lot faster and less
expensive to take the original Cad files and modify them as necessary to remodel the building(s).

Maybe it wasn't in the original contract that the owner is entitled to the Cad files, but after 10 years
it seems reasonable that if the owner pays extra for the files, he should get them. Right?

Vinny

Josh Nieman

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Re: Who Owns the Files?
« Reply #17 on: August 23, 2007, 10:02:00 AM »
Maybe I didn't make myself clear enough. The Architect created the drawing files on Cad 10 years ago
and now the Owner wants to make modifications to the building(s) without having to recreate the
Cad drawings from scratch. It is of course (without saying) that it would be a lot faster and less
expensive to take the original Cad files and modify them as necessary to remodel the building(s).

Maybe it wasn't in the original contract that the owner is entitled to the Cad files, but after 10 years
it seems reasonable that if the owner pays extra for the files, he should get them. Right?

Vinny

Well that's up to whoever makes the decision.. if he pays for them yea... I don't see a reason not to sell the use of 'em.

M-dub

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Re: Who Owns the Files?
« Reply #18 on: August 23, 2007, 10:11:58 AM »
Maybe it wasn't in the original contract that the owner is entitled to the Cad files, but after 10 years
it seems reasonable that if the owner pays extra for the files, he should get them. Right?

Yeah, I would think so.  10 years is a long time though... I would consider myself pretty lucky to get them after that much time had passed.

What's the Architect's reasoning for not handing them over?

vinnyg

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Re: Who Owns the Files?
« Reply #19 on: August 23, 2007, 10:31:02 AM »
Don't know yet......don't even know if the Owner has tried to get them. I'm just the lucky grunt
that gets to start at square one if the Owner dosen't get them. One of the buildings considered for
remodeling is round and the original prints are not very thorough with dimensions, angles, etc. so I
would have to do a lot of scaleing from the prints as I start on it. Will be interesting to see when and
how the Owner negotiates for the Cad files.

vinny

Atook

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Re: Who Owns the Files?
« Reply #20 on: August 23, 2007, 10:31:37 AM »
With that kind of time passing, I'd guess that the Architect doesn't want to go back through the archiving, or worse, doesn't even have them any more (dead floppies?)

Greg B

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Re: Who Owns the Files?
« Reply #21 on: August 23, 2007, 10:34:47 AM »
Gotta ask first.

The owner is not entitled to the electronic files.  He can not demand them.

M-dub

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Re: Who Owns the Files?
« Reply #22 on: August 23, 2007, 10:48:20 AM »
Will be interesting to see when and how the Owner negotiates for the Cad files.

Like this?

:pissed:


...I'm just the lucky grunt that gets to start at square one if the Owner dosen't get them. One of the buildings considered for remodeling is round...
nice...
When I was a kid, we lived in the country and our neighbour had a round house.  Man it was cool!  Still is!  Big spiral staircase in the centre, hallway around that, with all the rooms as somewhat pie shaped and then a deck / veranda that wrapped entirely around the house.  Very cool!
« Last Edit: August 23, 2007, 10:59:46 AM by M-dub »

Josh Nieman

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Re: Who Owns the Files?
« Reply #23 on: August 23, 2007, 10:49:53 AM »
dude you totally lost me with the pie house.

Missed a post, nm.

Guest

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Re: Who Owns the Files?
« Reply #24 on: August 23, 2007, 11:34:39 AM »
I'm just the lucky grunt that gets to start at square one if the Owner dosen't get them.

Think of it as "job security".  :-)

Krushert

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Re: Who Owns the Files?
« Reply #25 on: August 23, 2007, 01:00:18 PM »
I just had an owner (a real PITA) called me up for the cad files for the auto dealer ship we did for them 2 years ago.  After asking what are they going to do with them,
the response was we are going to mess around with them to get a layout that we like for that upstairs space that never got fit up.
So you have another architect (hoping)
No we are going to do it. 
Oh, okay I have to tell you, there we have huge concerns of liability so if the Architect has no problems I will be sending you a liability form that you have to sign off on stating that;
you will not hold us liable for your mistakes, injury and what not.
and you will due your due diligence with the AHJs.
and that you will do due diligence with verifying existing conditions

.......
and yadda yadda.
our lawyer drew up the this document and he a copy of every one we send out and comes back signed.

My firm has been in business for over 40 years and we have other architects calling us for cad files, drawings and whatever for a project that that we done many moons ago.   Same procedure with them.

Now consulatants files we send back forth all the time.  that is another whole different story  Matter of fact I FINAlly got a cad file just now from the Mechanical guy that we are using the first time.  Not only did he underlay my file but he used my dim and text styles and layer names.  I just had to change the color back to by layer on 6 notes.  The sweetest insert that I ever had to do for getting the roof equipment back onto the my roof plan.
I + XI = X is true ...  ... if you change your perspective.

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Guest

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Re: Who Owns the Files?
« Reply #26 on: August 23, 2007, 01:02:50 PM »
Not only did he underlay my file but he used my dim and text styles and layer names.  I just had to change the color back to by layer on 6 notes.  The sweetest insert that I ever had to do for getting the roof equipment back onto the my roof plan.

<Napoleon Dynamite> Luuucckyyyy </Napoleon Dynamite>

vinnyg

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Re: Who Owns the Files?
« Reply #27 on: August 23, 2007, 01:07:32 PM »
At my age, I don't want job security......I want easy! In this business now for
46 years, first as a carpenter, then a drafter and finally AutoCad

Vinny

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Re: Who Owns the Files?
« Reply #28 on: August 23, 2007, 01:21:26 PM »
When I was a kid, we lived in the country and our neighbour had a round house.  Man it was cool!  Still is!  Big spiral staircase in the centre, hallway around that, with all the rooms as somewhat pie shaped and then a deck / veranda that wrapped entirely around the house.  Very cool!

One would get really tired walking after being told "go stand in a corner"!

Krushert

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Re: Who Owns the Files?
« Reply #29 on: August 23, 2007, 01:27:38 PM »
When I was a kid, we lived in the country and our neighbour had a round house.  Man it was cool!  Still is!  Big spiral staircase in the centre, hallway around that, with all the rooms as somewhat pie shaped and then a deck / veranda that wrapped entirely around the house.  Very cool!

One would get really tired walking after being told "go stand in a corner"!
*** big loud annoucer's voice on DateLIne*** " .... and there we have it folks, the voice of experience!  So the moral of the story is ......"
I + XI = X is true ...  ... if you change your perspective.

I no longer CAD or Model, I just hang out here picking up the empties beer cans

Guest

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Re: Who Owns the Files?
« Reply #30 on: August 23, 2007, 01:34:26 PM »
When I was a kid, we lived in the country and our neighbour had a round house.  Man it was cool!  Still is!  Big spiral staircase in the centre, hallway around that, with all the rooms as somewhat pie shaped and then a deck / veranda that wrapped entirely around the house.  Very cool!

One would get really tired walking after being told "go stand in a corner"!
*** big loud annoucer's voice on DateLIne*** " .... and there we have it folks, the voice of experience!  So the moral of the story is ......"
Followd by...
'Hello "Maverick".  Why don't you have a seat right over there.  I'm Chris Hanson....'

craigr

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Re: Who Owns the Files?
« Reply #31 on: August 27, 2007, 11:15:46 AM »
Unless they are a competeing company, what ever happened to professional courtesy?

If you are worried about litigation, remove your title block &/or have them sign & return a legal document releasing you from all liabilities. That is what we do.

Sometimes companies / people get so high & mighty about CAD dwgs. I had one guy tell me "I've go many hours of work into these, I'm not going to give it away'. He had already been paid once to draw them for the customer. All we need was the floor plan, none of the piping, etc...

I guess I can understand selling your CAD files if it is a reproduceable item, like a house design or such, but for a particular building, I think it is childish to hold &/or charge for them.

craigr

Greg B

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Re: Who Owns the Files?
« Reply #32 on: August 28, 2007, 09:23:03 AM »
Unless they are a competeing company, what ever happened to professional courtesy?

If you are worried about litigation, remove your title block &/or have them sign & return a legal document releasing you from all liabilities. That is what we do.

Sometimes companies / people get so high & mighty about CAD dwgs. I had one guy tell me "I've go many hours of work into these, I'm not going to give it away'. He had already been paid once to draw them for the customer. All we need was the floor plan, none of the piping, etc...

I guess I can understand selling your CAD files if it is a reproduceable item, like a house design or such, but for a particular building, I think it is childish to hold &/or charge for them.

craigr

We are a design/build firm.  Now while we don't have a problem sharing our drawings if asked, I can understand where some companies might not want to. They built the building to begin with and if there are any additions or changes, naturally they will want to be doing the work and not losing it to someone else.

craigr

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Re: Who Owns the Files?
« Reply #33 on: August 28, 2007, 09:25:35 AM »
Which is why I said 'Unless they are a competeing company'.

craigr

Greg B

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Re: Who Owns the Files?
« Reply #34 on: August 28, 2007, 09:30:32 AM »
Which is why I said 'Unless they are a competeing company'.

craigr

Sorry..I related to just the residential market.