Author Topic: Flattening drawings.  (Read 53724 times)

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Dinosaur

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« Reply #75 on: August 14, 2007, 03:01:38 PM »
. . . Did you look at the file from the "front"?? There are dozens of elements with (at least) errant Z values, that alone leads me to believe that the file (begun by someone familiar with 3D concepts and functions) has been manipulated by someone who didn't know what they were doing.  Such errors call into question the validity of the rest of the data contained in the file.
Yes . . . What is your criteria for determining the "errant Z value"?  I see no indication what vertical exaggeration is being used to properly display the profile to scale in those drawings.  I assume from the ltscale the plan is intended to be a 40 scale drawing in foot units so the factor is probably 8 if the vertical scale is 5 or 4 if it is 10 vertical.  I see maybe 10 lines that dive to zero that indicate someone drew from shot to shot from survey points that had zero elevation for some - not an error, just something that can be changed when and IF it is necessary.  I also see a lot of text entities that are placed with a Z value . . . the same basic condition and solution - for general purposes these are non-issues and not worth bothering with.  These drawings are ONLY shown in overhead plan view in our drawings.  Any view from the side is created by the software from data that is not available within this drawing and uses the exaggeration values I described above.

CADaver

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« Reply #76 on: August 14, 2007, 03:13:02 PM »
. . . Did you look at the file from the "front"?? There are dozens of elements with (at least) errant Z values, that alone leads me to believe that the file (begun by someone familiar with 3D concepts and functions) has been manipulated by someone who didn't know what they were doing.  Such errors call into question the validity of the rest of the data contained in the file.
Yes . . . What is your criteria for determining the "errant Z value"?  I see no indication what vertical exaggeration is being used to properly display the profile to scale in those drawings.  I assume from the ltscale the plan is intended to be a 40 scale drawing in foot units so the factor is probably 8 if the vertical scale is 5 or 4 if it is 10 vertical.  I see maybe 10 lines that dive to zero that indicate someone drew from shot to shot from survey points that had zero elevation for some - not an error, just something that can be changed when and IF it is necessary.  I also see a lot of text entities that are placed with a Z value . . . the same basic condition and solution - for general purposes these are non-issues and not worth bothering with.  These drawings are ONLY shown in overhead plan view in our drawings.  Any view from the side is created by the software from data that is not available within this drawing and uses the exaggeration values I described above.
Look at the front view in MODEL tab.  Those "errant" lines that "dive to zero" along with "a lot of text entities that are placed with a Z value" indicate the file was editted by someone who knew not what they were doing.  While you may be quite comfortable "not worth bothering with", it clearly indicates manipulation of data without proper training and/or thought, and questions the intent of the data.

CADaver

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« Reply #77 on: August 14, 2007, 03:13:48 PM »
  Color is not a compliance issue because it has little meaning for what we do

*Tim Allen*  Uuunghhh!


Is color important for you and what you do??

mjfarrell

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« Reply #78 on: August 14, 2007, 03:14:13 PM »
Me thinks the conversation very interesting about this.  I don't like commands that alter data in any way; Explode comes to mind.  I have gotten data that was at incorrect Z due to operator error.  My process is to verify the integrity of the data, upon finding the errant Z information, I send email to originator explaining where and how the data is in error and approximate time (cost) for me to fix it. Most offer to perform the cleanup in house rather than incur the cost of my adjusting the bad data. I think the underlying issue is user skill training not 3D or not to 3D. It is amazing how many users who don't get it, that even though they think they are drawing 2D in Autocad, are actually drawing in 3D with active Z of 0, and they are unawares that using 'normal' snapping processes in a 3D drawing can result in the line appearing correct to them in plan view but being totally wrong in the Z direction. :realmad:
Be your Best


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CADaver

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« Reply #79 on: August 14, 2007, 03:16:51 PM »
Me thinks the conversation very interesting about this.  I don't like commands that alter data in any way; Explode comes to mind.  I have gotten data that was at incorrect Z due to operator error.  My process is to verify the integrity of the data, upon finding the errant Z information, I send email to originator explaining where and how the data is in error and approximate time (cost) for me to fix it. Most offer to perform the cleanup in house rather than incur the cost of my adjusting the bad data.
Usually we don't give them the option. Repair and re-submit.

I think the underlying issue is user skill training not 3D or not to 3D.
My point all along.

Maverick®

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« Reply #80 on: August 14, 2007, 03:27:56 PM »
Is color important for you and what you do??

No more than Z axis info seems to be for CaddmanQ.   ;-)

Dinosaur

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« Reply #81 on: August 14, 2007, 03:37:50 PM »
. . .Look at the front view in MODEL tab.  Those "errant" lines that "dive to zero" along with "a lot of text entities that are placed with a Z value" indicate the file was editted by someone who knew not what they were doing.  While you may be quite comfortable "not worth bothering with", it clearly indicates manipulation of data without proper training and/or thought, and questions the intent of the data.
That is exactly how I viewed them and they do NOT necessarily indicate such.  The text and surrounding boxes were likely all spawned from one piece of text drawn on a contour with elevation and was copied and rotated as necessary throughout the plan.  While technically incorrect, this is a non-issue for any plan this drawing will become a part of unless someone tries to pan, move or draw an object from the insert point of that text.  The design data does not give a rat's keester what the z value of that text is and every place it is visible, it will plot the same as if it was dead on zero.  There will also be no effect on the drawing if Joe's application is used to make it so if someone is just too bent about it to leave it alone.
Bottom line - Sure this drawing could be worked on some, especially in the block that comprises most of it.  Actually someone could sit down and waste a whole lot of time messing with it and not make one lick of difference in how the civil drawings it is based upon will plot out when finished.

CADaver

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« Reply #82 on: August 14, 2007, 04:19:13 PM »
Is color important for you and what you do??

No more than Z axis info seems to be for CaddmanQ.   ;-)
An error in placement is severe.

CADaver

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« Reply #83 on: August 14, 2007, 04:21:11 PM »
. . .Look at the front view in MODEL tab.  Those "errant" lines that "dive to zero" along with "a lot of text entities that are placed with a Z value" indicate the file was editted by someone who knew not what they were doing.  While you may be quite comfortable "not worth bothering with", it clearly indicates manipulation of data without proper training and/or thought, and questions the intent of the data.
That is exactly how I viewed them and they do NOT necessarily indicate such.  The text and surrounding boxes were likely all spawned from one piece of text drawn on a contour with elevation and was copied and rotated as necessary throughout the plan.  While technically incorrect, this is a non-issue for any plan this drawing will become a part of unless someone tries to pan, move or draw an object from the insert point of that text.  The design data does not give a rat's keester what the z value of that text is and every place it is visible, it will plot the same as if it was dead on zero.  There will also be no effect on the drawing if Joe's application is used to make it so if someone is just too bent about it to leave it alone.
Bottom line - Sure this drawing could be worked on some, especially in the block that comprises most of it.  Actually someone could sit down and waste a whole lot of time messing with it and not make one lick of difference in how the civil drawings it is based upon will plot out when finished.
I'm not worried about plotting but the accuracy of the data.  If any of the rest of it is as slip-shod as what is plainly visible then it is a liabiltiy I'd as soon avoid.  If you wish to trust it, then carry on.

Maverick®

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« Reply #84 on: August 14, 2007, 04:35:58 PM »
An error in placement is severe.

Not if the error is vertical and.....
Quote
not a compliance issue because it has little meaning for what we do.


Greg B

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« Reply #85 on: August 14, 2007, 05:40:28 PM »
*gasp*

I should NOT have held my breath the whole thread.

CADaver

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« Reply #86 on: August 14, 2007, 07:19:34 PM »
An error in placement is severe.

Not if the error is vertical and.....
Quote
not a compliance issue because it has little meaning for what we do.


Failure in accurate placement is severe.  If you can live with inaccurately placed elements, carry on.  BTW, the dims had better be exploded.

Dinosaur

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« Reply #87 on: August 14, 2007, 08:20:16 PM »
I'm not worried about plotting but the accuracy of the data.  If any of the rest of it is as slip-shod as what is plainly visible then it is a liabiltiy I'd as soon avoid.  If you wish to trust it, then carry on.
WHAT data? . . . there is no data in this drawing for you to be suspicious of.  Perhaps a remnant of some design data has been blocked in to show intent, but primarily this is nothing but 2D site geometry.  You probably had a 3 in 4 shot of even having the "contours" at elevation.  There is no surface, no point data in evidence and not even an alignment to base a profile from to use the data if there were any here.  The only "data"  like elements you have here are the spot elevations provided to show what the design data says is the elevation at a specific 2D location and I would venture a guess that if the engineer caught someone taking the time to create each of those at the prescribed z value, it would be the last time they did that and likely any other drafting task for him.  These side, back and front views are irrelevant and NOT used for this type of work.  Any quasi 3D type view will out of necessity by the very large horizontal scale, be exaggerated by the factors I described earlier and as such will mean the model is not true.  There is zero benefit for anything at elevation in these base plans other than zero, in fact lending more confusion than anything as is evident in this thread.  Even the 3D like profile views that design software generates is not really a side, back or front view of the design model.  In addition to the distortion of the vertical scale, these views are not along a single plane through the model, but a series of views looking straight on perpendicular to the alignment geometry at any point as if straight segments and curves alike were pulled out and pasted z axis up flat in front of you.  Only in the case of a single straight alignment will result in a cross section of the model and that still with the vertical exaggeration.
A 3D model that you would produce would likewise be of dubious worth for us.  What we really need is the north-south location where any of your pipes need a connection, the pipe size, type and elevation at that point and if possible the direction the pipe is running when it terminates from your plan along with any horizontal and vertical conversion numbers needed to match your data to ours.  A building footprint with a dimension to the pipe end from an appropriate spot with those notes would do just fine.

edit - fixed quote . . . I can only hope to someday match Greg or Randy in mastering the art of quote
« Last Edit: August 14, 2007, 11:03:16 PM by DinØsaur »

CADaver

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« Reply #88 on: August 14, 2007, 11:17:55 PM »
I'm not worried about plotting but the accuracy of the data.  If any of the rest of it is as slip-shod as what is plainly visible then it is a liability I'd as soon avoid.  If you wish to trust it, then carry on.
WHAT data? . . . there is no data in this drawing for you to be suspicious of. 
EVERY element contains data if nothing more that the coordinate of it's start point.  If the designer placing that element is so sloppy as to screw up the Z location of the element, I have serious doubts about his/her capabilities in accurately placing either of the other two coords.

The only "data"  like elements you have here are the spot elevations provided to show what the design data says is the elevation at a specific 2D location
That "specific 2D location" is data is it not?  If he's incapable of accurately placing the third "D", just how "specific" can the other two possibly be?

and I would venture a guess that if the engineer caught someone taking the time to create each of those at the prescribed z value, it would be the last time they did that and likely any other drafting task for him. 
Luddite??

These side, back and front views are irrelevant and NOT used for this type of work. 
And any distance gathered from these errant entities will be inaccurate, hardly irrelevant.  Buying pipe based on a distance gleaned from such a line would be an expensive error.  Sorry, its a cr4ppy drawing, I'd avoid using.

A 3D model that you would produce would likewise be of dubious worth for us.  What we really need is the north-south location where any of your pipes need a connection, the pipe size, type and elevation at that point and if possible the direction the pipe is running when it terminates from your plan along with any horizontal and vertical conversion numbers needed to match your data to ours. 
Based on the poor construction of the drawing, I'd have serious doubts about gleaning any of the information you list above  from the file.  If they can't get a "Z" right, what  makes you think they'll get either the "X" or the "Y" right?? So your North South location is suspect.  We already know the elevation is suspect.

A building footprint with a dimension to the pipe end from an appropriate spot ...
And your guarantee you have an "appropriate spot" is what?  A cr4ppy drawing.  Sorry, I'll avoid that liability.  If that is a risk you're willing to take, then carry on.

Dinosaur

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« Reply #89 on: August 15, 2007, 12:48:23 AM »
Again, for the purposes of a plan of this type, we tend to completely ignore the Z values except for surveyed points and points tied to a surface.  In lieu of having a surface, "contour" lines may have an elevation attached for reference, but this tends to fool others into thinking they have more accuracy than the actual plus or minus 1/2 of their interval we are telling them it has.  A Z value is not really considered unless we get a clue such as a non-continuous linetype not appearing correctly, failure to fillet or intersect or an errant offset.  Since we do not intentionally enter a Z value in the linework it is almost always a byproduct of drawing line between points of different elevation.  Surveyors can be very prolific with their points and it is often necessary to turn the elevation value off while creating linework due a congested area.  Some of these lines get missed and when they cause an obvious problem they are corrected . . . often we never even notice.  More massive distortions happen if one of these entities is used as part of a relative move, copy, mirror or rotate, but again it only affects Z values that we just don't think to check for.  If found, a flatten utility such as Joe provided serves quite well to solve any problems as does a series of changes to all entities in the properties box.  I think it is grand that you have a found such a use for these Z values for all of your linework and that they make your work so much more accurate and efficient.  For my need on a plan such as this though, they are at best a nuisance and as we can see here, a real obstacle.  I can honestly count on both hands every time I recall needing to type in a Z coordinate while constructing or editing my linework during my 31 years of this work.

The 2D locations your are so ready to dismiss along with the 3D drivel however is normally placed either painstakingly point to point from surveyed data using instruments capable of accuracy of the level of 1:15,000 or generated by the design program itself completely bypassing the technician.  The X,Y AND Z values for surveyed coordinates of these points are displayed to 4 decimal places and if you are getting a Z on the linework, you can bet your keester the node osnap was being used at the time.  The 2D is accurate if the drawing is created by anyone even half trying to do their job.  It is actually more difficult to NOT generate the linework correctly for 2D purposes.

I call BS on your Luddite slur.  What earthly purpose would there be in making a leader and chunk of text at a Z value accurate to 2 decimal places when any design change can render the value invalid.  The purpose of a spot elevation is to GRAPHICALLY represent the surface elevation at a certain point, not something to pick on to check if it numerical value matches its Z coordinate.  There is no time available in project I have worked in to waste in this manner.

When you inquire a distance between two points do you not get both a 2D and a 3D value?  Use the 2D number and unless you are working on a whopping slope you will get a good number.  Most all of the pipes out in the yard come in 20 lengths and are usually estimated on the number of said lengths will be needed since there is only one joint per each and any trimmed will be waste.  You will be close enough.

The dimension that I said would be needed would be from a good corner off of YOUR plans.  It would be up to me to worry about the accuracy of the plans you provided, verify your data, determine if we are using the same vertical and horizontal datum and rotation, and decide at what point to safely make your inch units match my foot units.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2007, 01:24:16 AM by DinØsaur »