Author Topic: STDLib  (Read 13209 times)

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Kerry

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Re: STDLib
« Reply #45 on: July 13, 2007, 11:14:45 PM »
I've often noticed a 'Method/Class is deprecated' warning message in the IDE.

Autodesk have also used that message when transitioning from one .NET API to another. 

It's a big topic, and definitely worthy of some discussion.


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MP

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Re: STDLib
« Reply #46 on: July 13, 2007, 11:17:49 PM »
C'mon, it's apples and fish.

For example with .NET you do get a warning at development time if you're referencing a deprecated method or property. You don't have that option with LISP. Frankly I'd rather my user's see a message rather than continue to use out of date functions.

Mileages ...

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Keith™

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Re: STDLib
« Reply #47 on: July 14, 2007, 09:30:01 AM »
I can certainly see where a message from a replaced function can be helpful. In the end, the user knows that something has changed and they might be encouraged to change the implementation of that function. However, in the case of having a distributed work, the development team would undoubtedly field numerous calls wondering what is going on. Since most computer users are utterly clueless about writing any kind of code, they would not know how to handle the problem aside from putting in a call to IT. .. of course that creates its own set of issues .. such as, if the development staff is worth their pay, they will be using the latest libraries and will issue updates to their users when functions change.
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Re: STDLib
« Reply #48 on: July 14, 2007, 09:48:13 AM »
Or the end user did not acquire the latest version of a certain program and could potentially plagued with warning messages if the end user just so happens to get their hands on some other package using newer libraries.

I suppose there could be a way to suppress the warning messages via some flag

All these issues can be solved
« Last Edit: July 14, 2007, 09:54:26 AM by Danielm103 »

TimSpangler

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Re: STDLib
« Reply #49 on: July 14, 2007, 12:53:24 PM »
how would you ensure consumers of a LISP library be advised of deprecated functions etc?

Isn't this where good documentation come into play.  If the developer ,who uses the library, downloads the "latest" then he/she would have the new change log, in the changelog there would be:

NewFuntions

DsicontinuedFunctions

ReplacedFunctions

UpdatedFunctions

Yeah??
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LE

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Re: STDLib
« Reply #50 on: July 14, 2007, 02:19:37 PM »
and the beauty of autolisp, is that it is so simple, anyone can learn it... why it is the intention to make it difficult?.... a question to the philosophical gods... <they answer with a very low voice>...because that's how it is, they will look for the hard work most of the times... le!

MP

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Re: STDLib
« Reply #51 on: July 14, 2007, 02:38:43 PM »
If the developer ,who uses the library, downloads the "latest" then he/she would have the new change log, in the changelog there would be ...

In other words it's your experience people actually read logs, readme files etc? Wooooo, that's a gasser!

:-D
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John Kaul (Se7en)

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Re: STDLib
« Reply #52 on: July 16, 2007, 01:52:55 PM »
Thats all fine and great but where do we sit? Will there be a lib? Who will PM a huge undertaking? Who will this lib be developed for (ODCL, general, etc.). What are the time lines, what are the stds,  etc.

<blah, blah-it's a go-ahead> theSwamp is already setup for professional code development, but who is to host the lib (will Mark allow something of that nature to be hosted here? --if its ODCL, i assume that we will upload milestones on the sourceforge project but i would still assume that Mark will ``host'' the development.)

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MP

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Re: STDLib
« Reply #53 on: July 16, 2007, 05:27:47 PM »
Will there be a lib?

Right after the Open Source Survey and Document Management Libraries are finished.
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Kerry

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Re: STDLib
« Reply #54 on: July 16, 2007, 05:34:55 PM »
 :wink:
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John Kaul (Se7en)

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Re: STDLib
« Reply #55 on: July 16, 2007, 06:19:14 PM »
I wasnt part of those projects.

I've already started work on my end (before this thread came about; I started work on a LIB proposal when i had a private conversation with a friend of mine about a month ago.), but now im waiting to hear the response to another ODCL question before i do anything further.
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Kerry

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Re: STDLib
« Reply #56 on: July 16, 2007, 06:52:18 PM »

Quote
... but now im waiting to hear the response to another ODCL question before i do anything further.


What are you talking about John ?
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John Kaul (Se7en)

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Re: STDLib
« Reply #57 on: July 16, 2007, 07:37:46 PM »

Quote
... but now im waiting to hear the response to another ODCL question before i do anything further.


What are you talking about John ?

The thread about the new forum...[ https://www.theswamp.org/index.php?topic=17468.msg213003#msg213003 ]

I guess, I was hoping to see more of a meld of the `open community' (I know it makes me sound a bit credulous or just makes me seem foolish but i dont mind i guess.). But, to be blunt--and you know that i ultimately dont mean to be `gruff'...--i think it was a missed opportunity when OpenDCL decided to create a forum separate of this one (i had just noticed that thread this evening.).

That being said, i do not think that *I* will continue working on a OpenDCL AutoLisp std library.
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Chuck Gabriel

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Re: STDLib
« Reply #58 on: July 16, 2007, 10:08:42 PM »
Will there be a lib?

Right after the Open Source Survey and Document Management Libraries are finished.

I was really looking forward to learning (teaching myself) some interesting things working on the survey package.  Unfortunately, the driver of that project lost interest, and I didn't have any idea what to do next without his direction.  Surveying isn't my field.

MP

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Re: STDLib
« Reply #59 on: July 16, 2007, 10:41:00 PM »
I guess, I was hoping to see more of a meld of the 'open community' (I know it makes me sound a bit credulous or just makes me seem foolish but i dont mind i guess).

John ... there is a glut of "Open Community meld" going on at the swamp, especially with regards to AutoLISP. There are approximately 2500 separate threads specific to AutoLISP alone, never mind the cross pollination that occurs between forums where AutoLISP gets anted up as a solution or remedy to a problem that may not necessarily be floated originally as an AutoLISP challenge. Simply put, the swamp is the envy of most other AutoLISP discussion forums.

My response with regards to "after the survey package" etc. was a vague reference to the challenges and difficulties any library team would face trying to compile a common library. History has shown it's extremely difficult to achieve consensus on coding standards and styles unless it's mandated and policed from the top down. Or done solo. It's largely because a committee is a 12 legged creature that tries to crawl in 6 different directions.

Even with a "Manager Elect" it's challenging at best to have the kind of sustained passion and determination it takes to build a complete, solid, efficient and professional level library unless you start with committed professionals with shared goals, ideals and benefit (not necessarily economic). I just don't see said folks having a long burn interest because this one has comparatively little benefit in contrast to other projects out in the wild -- they already have their libraries -- this really isn't something new.

Is it impossible? Of course not. Am I wrong? 50/50 chance on that. But my experience suggests the odds are that it won't come to fruition.

Challenge extended: Please do prove me wrong.

But, to be blunt--and you know that i ultimately dont mean to be 'gruff'...--i think it was a missed opportunity when OpenDCL decided to create a forum separate of this one (i had just noticed that thread this evening.).

Help me to understand this. Is it not the right and interest of just about any company to want to establish their own web presence? Does MP have a web site or two, does Chuck? Does Keith? Does Craig? Does Autodesk? Does McNeel? Do they have their own forums? Are you boycotting them?

That being said, i do not think that *I* will continue working on a OpenDCL AutoLisp std library.

Does this mean you are 'punishing' the OpenDCL effort? because if it is I must tell you it would be a classic case of cutting off the nose to spite the face.

OpenDCL is becoming an outstanding product, indeed, with all due respect and kudos to Chad, it's far surpassing it's original architecture and limits. It means significant rich interfaces can be defined, implemented and maintained with very little effort. Owen and the crew have been working very hard to make it a stable and well documented product. Due to the collective momentum and work load Barry may have been a little too concise with his message about the new forum, but there was the genuine attempt to give thanks to, and acknowledgment to the swamp and Mark for his help during the genesis of the product by generously providing forum space. I see no problem or conflict with Owen and crew now desiring a unique presence and board exclusive to the support of their software. Indeed, there is already much confusion between ObjectDCL and OpenDCL, a discrete board will alleviate that confusion. Obviously ObjectDCL discussions would not happen on the new forum, but they wouldn't be discouraged at the swamp -- would they?

I understand your loyalty to the swamp John, it's noble, sincere and admirable, but please consider the possibility that the OpenDCL effort is being performed by ethical, credible professionals; folks that are fueled merely by their interest in supporting the community that was once orphaned by the cessation of the original product. Folks not unlike you. In case you don't know it was the community of ODCL users that begged Owen to take up the effort. Once he reluctantly agreed others followed and took up the cause because the man is an outstanding gentleman, leader and programmer -- in that order.

I will acknowledge that I wouldn't have posted a "Hey, don't post here, post over there" type comment. It could have been phrased more eloquently. Hey, I've had my share of "Dang, could have said that better" moments. You had one maybe?

To close I'll extend this invitation -- Since you are keen to be involved in Open Source efforts I'd ask you to consider helping out the OpenDCL effort by using and testing the product so that any bugs and / or omissions in the documentation can be addressed and remedied. You have your own unique experience and perspective, shame to not benefit from it.

But maybe I'm wrong and ramble for naught ...

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