Topic: Title Blocks are usually Placed in PaperSpace

[MSTG007]

Title Blocks are usually Placed in PaperSpace

[Dent Cermak]

In multiple sheet layouts that works. In my field, the client wants the job on 1 sheet as much as possible, so this is really a "non-issue" for me.

[MP]

See my response here.

[CADaver]

All Title Blocks shall be Placed in PaperSpace

Of course.

[Keith™]

I concur with MP ... it should be defined within the standards of the company paying for the drawings.

[CADaver]

I concur with MP ... it should be defined within the standards of the company paying for the drawings.

But that is true of everything.  If the client wants it on a paper bag with a crayon, and is willing to pay for it, that's what he gets.  I assumed we were discussing general cad standards.

[Keith™]

We are, but then wouldn't that apply to the company that is paying for the drawings?

I mean if we are discussing what standards SHOULD be, would it be a stretch then to presume that the client who wants his TB in MS is not doing it how it SHOULD be ..... If that is the case,  then these discussions may likely produce some good results. BUT if the final say is that the client has the final say, then if the client wants it in MS then it is correct to put it in MS....this also bleeds over to all other discussions, layers, linetypes, textstyles etc...what the client wants, the client gets....It just so happens that in my office, the client is the business owner, and he has told me that I am to define the standards regarding drawings. So effectively it is what I want...and that being said then, if I want the TB in MS is that wrong? since by proxy I am acting on behalf of the client?

[hendie]

I've always placed TB's in paperspace, until I came to work for my current emplyer, that is.
I like the functionality and flexibility that TB's in paperspace allow.
However, in my current position, all dwg work is done in MS, including TB's.
We only use 1 (A3) Title Block, all blocks are not drawn to scale, in fact almost everything I do here is backward compared to what I would say should be standard ~ but it works. And now that I've used this system for around 4 years my temper and frustration has calmed down.

[CADaver]

However, in my current position, all dwg work is done in MS, including TB's.

Why? Is there some reason they wish to do so?

[hendie]

Cadaver, this is a really unique position ~ everything is set up for the end-users benefit.... the end user being a girl on the shop floor  :horror:
bear in mind that these girls have no technical background....
we only ever use one titleblock (A3) ~ our drawings consist of between 5 and 8 blocks (normally).
The blocks are not drawn to scale, nor are the blocks in some instances technically "correct" ~ the blocks are more "graphical representations" of the manufactured product.
It's hard trying to explain it wthout showing you an actual drawing which I am not allowed to do.
We've tried educating the women on the shop floor but that fish in Finding Nemo springs to mind.. what was her name.. Dorey ?? ~ well I guess you can get the picture.

I'm not saying this is the "right" way or the wrong way~ merely that this is the way that works here and included it as an example that there is always an exception to the rule.

*edited to add*
another important point (from our perspective..) is that the drawings are plotted by the end user by third party software ~ and for some reason it doesn't like paperspace

[CADaver]

Cadaver, this is a really unique position ~ everything is set up for the end-users benefit.... the end user being a girl on the shop floor  :horror:
bear in mind that these girls have no technical background....
we only ever use one titleblock (A3) ~ our drawings consist of between 5 and 8 blocks (normally).
The blocks are not drawn to scale, nor are the blocks in some instances technically "correct" ~ the blocks are more "graphical representations" of the manufactured product.
It's hard trying to explain it wthout showing you an actual drawing which I am not allowed to do.
We've tried educating the women on the shop floor but that fish in Finding Nemo springs to mind.. what was her name.. Dorey ?? ~ well I guess you can get the picture.

I'm not saying this is the "right" way or the wrong way~ merely that this is the way that works here and included it as an example that there is always an exception to the rule.

*edited to add*
another important point (from our perspective..) is that the drawings are plotted by the end user by third party software ~ and for some reason it doesn't like paperspace

I was just curious, sometimes when the procedures are xplained a better way can be formulated....  then again, sometimes not.

[MP]

My 2 cents ...

Generally speaking our title blocks reside in paperspace in typical engineering drawings, drawings that reference one or more models in modelspace, have one or more viewports in paperspace to present views of the models and are annotated in paperspace.

But non model type drawings, like ISOs, schematics, single line diagrams, loop drawings etc. are created entirely in modelspace, including the titleblock, at 1:1. There is no need for viewports, hense no need for paperspace.

This is typically how our clients want us to treat "model" and "non model" drawings, and we happily comply.

[CADaver]

But non model type drawings, like ISOs, schematics, single line diagrams, loop drawings etc. are created entirely in modelspace, including the titleblock, at 1:1. There is no need for viewports, hense no need for paperspace.

This is typically how our clients want us to treat "model" and "non model" drawings, and we happily comply.

For us, isos are model drawings.  We pull the iso from the 3D model and annotate it.

[OU-CAD]

We are Arch / Struct Engr. firm.  Our TB's are a separate file x-ref'd into each drawing file in paper space.  That way, all TB's are the same and if change  needs to be made to Title Block, we only have to do it once.  (Additional Info like sheet names and sheet numbers are part of the individual drawing - also in PS)

[CADaver]

That way, all TB's are the same and if change  needs to be made to Title Block, we only have to do it once.

Whole nuther topic, do a search

[OU-CAD]

CAD-aver:  Really?
 
Subect: Title Blocks are usually placed in Paper Space

My Comment:  Description of how we get them into paper space

How is this off topic??

[Kate M]

CADaver was referring to the issue whether title blocks should be blocks or xrefs -- something that's been debated over and over here and elsewhere.

[CADaver]

CAD-aver:  Really?
 
Subect: Title Blocks are usually placed in Paper Space

My Comment:  Description of how we get them into paper space

How is this off topic??

Not off-topic, just another one.  After posting here a while you'll find that "off-topic" posting is not as "frowned upon" here as it is in other forums.  For many around here, thread hi-jacking is a hobby (this post   ), in fact, some of us have brought it the the level of a fine art.

But I digress.

As our one and only Kate pointed out, I was referring to the comment about TBs as XREFs.  If you'll do a search of the forum, you'll find some quite interesting discussions.

[ML]

OK, here is why Title Blocks in Model Space are a very BAD idea in my opinion and i have seen this;

If you put a title block in Model Space, you have to scale your title block around the drawing, then goodluck printing to a precise scale.

I have seen instances where people have scaled their drawing (in model space) down to fit in a standard size (ie 24X36) title block making a door that should be 36" now 3/32"

I will never agree to putting a title block in Model, it is why paper space was developed.

[CADaver]

If you put a title block in Model Space, you have to scale your title block around the drawing, then goodluck printing to a precise scale.

If you scale the TB  precisely, it is very easy to plot to a precise scale.  We did it for years prior to R11.

I  have seen instances where people have scaled their drawing (in model space) down to fit in a standard size (ie 24X36) title block making a door that should be 36" now 3/32"

And every now and then you run into a total git.

I will never agree to putting a title block in Model, it is why paper space was developed.

That's only partially accurate.  According the the beta test set I had for R11, it was developed to provide a method for plotting different views of a 3D model.  Until that was a possibility, 3D was, at best, cute.

[ML]

Well, you can certainly set you scale when plotting something drawn in Model Space, but the title block (If in Model Space) will never be at an accurate scale and as far as i can see, would interfere with an accurate scale of everything in Model

If I were to put a  title block in Model (It would be a cold day in hell)
then I would absolutely print Scaled to Fit

 

[CADaver]

Well, you can certainly set you scale when plotting something drawn in Model Space, but the title block (If in Model Space) will never be at an accurate scale and as far as i can see, would interfere with an accurate scale of everything in Model

If I were to put a  title block in Model (It would be a cold day in hell)
then I would absolutely print Scaled to Fit

 

It aint rocket science.  Insert the border at the dimscale, then plot to the dimscale.  It's as accurate as PS.  Plotting to fit pretty much guarantees it won't be to scale.

[ML]

Exactly

I only plot not to scale when it is not necessary to have a scale
But, I still believe it is a bad practice to put title blocks in Model but that is my opinion, it doesn't make it right.

I just believe it is asking for problems especially if you have beginner CAD guys.

[sinc]

The A/E/C CADD Standard that the DOD uses specifies that title blocks should go in model space, in their own drawing.  All model information goes in one or more "model" drawings.  Each plotted page has a separate "plot" drawing - no multiple layouts allowed.  The various model drawings are then XREFd together, along with the title block, in the "plot" drawings.

This method works, and does not have any issues with scaling, since that is all controlled in the "plot" drawing.  Your title block is in a seperate drawing from your model, so it is isolated from your model, which is also good.  It all works, it just creates a proliferation of files - what could be done in one drawing file now takes three, all XREFd together.

The only work we do that follows this standard is for the US Air Force Academy, and they actually ignore this part of the standard.  They keep the "model" and "plot" drawing concept, and still do the 1 printed page = 1 "plot" drawing, but they have us put the title block in paper space in the "plot" drawing.

[ML]

OK, granted, so how do you do multiple scales within one title block for different parts of the same floor plan utilizing model space?


Mark

[sinc]

I don't understand the question...

There is no difference between a title block that is placed in paper space, and one that is XREF'd into model space at the inverse of the scale of the paperspace viewport it will be viewed in.

If you define a title block that works when you put it in paper space, it will work if you put it in model space in a seperate drawing and XREF it in at the appropriate scale.  From the printed page, you can't tell the difference.

[CADaver]

Exactly
I only plot not to scale when it is not necessary to have a scale

It should never be necessary, a good drawing will contain all the information necessary to accomplish the task.  But that's a whole 'nuther thread.

But, I still believe it is a bad practice to put title blocks in Model but that is my opinion, it doesn't make it right.

I just believe it is asking for problems especially if you have beginner CAD guys.

For years, until R11, that was the only practice, so I can't agree that it is bad practice.  I will agree that PS is considerably more efficient.

[ML]

OK, the answer is, you can't in Model

In Paperspace, with one title block, you can create multiple viewports (ie mview) all having different scales and showing different sections of your plan.

Mark

[CADaver]

The A/E/C CADD Standard that the DOD uses specifies that title blocks should go in model space, in their own drawing.  All model information goes in one or more "model" drawings.  Each plotted page has a separate "plot" drawing - no multiple layouts allowed.  The various model drawings are then XREFd together, along with the title block, in the "plot" drawings.

The only work we do that follows this standard is for the US Air Force Academy, and they actually ignore this part of the standard.  They keep the "model" and "plot" drawing concept, and still do the 1 printed page = 1 "plot" drawing, but they have us put the title block in paper space in the "plot" drawing.

This is interesting, we do work for the DoD through CoE this "standard" has never come up.  We've been using PS and multiple tabs for quite some time without comment... yet.  It might someday jump up bite us in the butt, but so far nothing.

[ML]

So, the bottom line is

It is an individual thing, I just think Paper is more versatile for your title block layouts. Just keep in mind that if you ever have an entry level person working with you and placing a title block in model, the chances of error are increased

Next subject  :o

[CADaver]

OK, the answer is, you can't in Model

Mark

Limited imagination eh?

Sure you can, several ways.  One is just scale up the detail in modelspace.  We had tools to scale 'em up and down as needed and to set the right annotation sizes.  Since R11, you can XREF the detail into MS on the border at the proper scale and carry on.  Or block it in.  Or...  well there are several ways to skin that cat.

[CADaver]

So, the bottom line is

It is an individual thing, I just think Paper is more versatile for your title block layouts.

Oh, I agree.

Just keep in mind that if you ever have an entry level person working with you and placing a title block in model, the chances of error are increased

Oh? why?  Scaling the detail is little different than scaling the zoom factor in the viewport.

[ML]

I would NEVER scale anything up in Model
If a door is 36" wide in real life, it should ALWAYS be 36" in Model

If you scale anything up in Model, it should be the title block ONLY if you are going in that direction.

I just realized, there is one case where I do put a title block in Model

I have macros in work that we use to insert the title blocks into paperspace in our drawings

The source title block (blocked in drawing) needs to have the title block in Model Space as Paper space can not be blocked in.

Still, My title blocks are the actual and proper sizes (ie 17X22, 24X36) and so on