Topic: Text is usually placed in to Paper SPACE

[t-bear]

How about this for a topic.....
"you should never use a scale on a plotted drawing."
Your thoughts?

[CADaver]

either that or you are using a "plot to fit"

Exactly

which does absolutely nothing for scaling drawings...

covered extensivly on another thread.  No intelligent reason to scale a plot, the information should be available from the content of the drawing, IMO

[Believe me ... if I can see a way around it, I will gladly have a single PS model to plot ... but alas I have not seen one that is effective

We use a 34x22 sheet, assume that the plot scale for a viewport is 1/4" = 1'-0" for a page setup that plots 1:1.  A page setup for that same sheet at 1:2 will produce an 11x17 plot, scalable at 1/8" = 1'-0"

[CADaver]

How about this for a topic.....
"you should never use a scale on a plotted drawing."
Your thoughts?

New thread

[Keith™]

either that or you are using a "plot to fit"

Exactly

We always plot to scale using the apropriate scale factor as we have found that if you plot to fit, the scaling frequently ends up being off by about 1' in 40' .... based on a 1/4"=1'-0" plot (i.e. plotting 1:1)

which does absolutely nothing for scaling drawings...

covered extensivly on another thread.  No intelligent reason to scale a plot, the information should be available from the content of the drawing, IMO

Perhaps I misstated my point or perhaps it was misunderstood. The drawing itself is not scaled. It is 1:1, but if it is plotted to fit... frequently the plotted drawing scale will be off. I see no option other than specifying 1:1 on plots

Believe me ... if I can see a way around it, I will gladly have a single PS model to plot ... but alas I have not seen one that is effective

We use a 34x22 sheet, assume that the plot scale for a viewport is 1/4" = 1'-0" for a page setup that plots 1:1.  A page setup for that same sheet at 1:2 will produce an 11x17 plot, scalable at 1/8" = 1'-0"

I'll have to try that, it just might work....If'n it does, I will have one less layout to deal with...I will simply plot the Arch D at 1:2 to 11x17

[t-bear]

Keith....
I don't know about archD (24X36...right?) but it works great on MechD (22X34).  We use it all the time.  Our standard (there's that word again) text size is .09 and even scaled 1/2 it is quite legible.  In fact, this is the size we employ in our User Manuals.....
We only have one TB, and three "page setups" ... a-size  for inhouse chks and faxes, b-size for submittals, as builts and manuals, and d-size for in-house dwgs.   VERY simple!

[CADaver]

Perhaps I misstated my point or perhaps it was misunderstood. The drawing itself is not scaled. It is 1:1, but if it is plotted to fit... frequently the plotted drawing scale will be off. I see no option other than specifying 1:1 on plots
...
I'll have to try that, it just might work....If'n it does, I will have one less layout to deal with...I will simply plot the Arch D at 1:2 to 11x17

We use it in pre-defined page setups in our templates, but we use ANSI D, not ARCH D.  ARCH D is a 24X36 sheet that is not evenly scaleable to 11x17.  You would plot to fit.  And as you say, the scale would be off. See the thread on scaling plots

[Keith™]

See the thread on scaling plots

Already did ... I posted the main reason I need them to be to scale on the plot .... essentially contractors who are too lazy to add 2+2

[CADaver]

See the thread on scaling plots

Already did ... I posted the main reason I need them to be to scale on the plot .... essentially contractors who are too lazy to add 2+2

They shouldn't have to, that information, if necessary should be reflected in the content of the drawing.  But more to the point, you're going to trust these same guys to ACCURATELY scale a print, whose accuracy is at best a guess?  If they are "too lazy to add 2+2", I don't want them guessing about any dimesions with their "Dollar Store" 3' tape measure.

[Keith™]

See the thread on scaling plots

Already did ... I posted the main reason I need them to be to scale on the plot .... essentially contractors who are too lazy to add 2+2

They shouldn't have to, that information, if necessary should be reflected in the content of the drawing.  But more to the point, you're going to trust these same guys to ACCURATELY scale a print, whose accuracy is at best a guess?  If they are "too lazy to add 2+2", I don't want them guessing about any dimesions with their "Dollar Store" 3' tape measure.

I don't trust them as far as I could pick up their butt at throw it up in the air. You must understand, these contractors are not employed by us (my company), they are employed by the client (our company's client). Frequently the customer hires Bubba and Forest to build their house because they are second cousins on their mother's side and uncles on their fathers side. Rather than have the client be mad at us because the drawings didn't work (they can't be mad at Bubba and Forest cause they're family so it must be or fault) we provide them accurately scaled, always.

Oh, and the builder needing to add 2X2, if you have ever seen a set of architectural plans you would know it is not possible to give a dimension in every conceivable direction, some by neccessity (because of lack of room on the paper) must be determined by adding adjacent dimensions.
If I presume that Bubba can't add those together, then I should also presume since he can't add he probably cannot use a measuring tape, so he probably don't have one anyway.
Incedently if he can scale the drawing (with a Dollar Store 3' tape measure) and do the multiplication, why on earth would he not simply say 9'-4" + 2'-8" = 12'-0" ??

I MUST out of neccessity prepare these drawings for ANY idiot that happens to end up using them, to the best of my abilities.

Oh, and one more thing ....

It is neither efficient nor inefficient to plot at 1/4" = 1'-0" anymore than it is to "plot to fit", but I'll bet that given a drawing plotted to 1/4"=1'-0" scale I can build it without the first dimension at all. That aside, in Florida the building code requires scale plotted drawings.

§104.2 Drawings and specifications

  §104.2.1 Requirements. As required by §104.3.1.1 of the code, two or more copies of specifications, and of drawings drawn to scale with sufficient clarity and detail to indicate the nature and character of the work, shall accompany the application for a permit. .......

And ...

9B-1.009 Design Plan and Systems Approval.
(2)(b)
......Plans drawn to a scale less than 1/8 inch to the foot are not acceptable.

So besides having to meet the requirements of Bubba & Forest (by being able to scale the drawing in the field) I must also meet the requirements of the Florida Building Code.

To that end I will not even entertain the thought of plotting to fit, ever....

I still wonder then, if you could plot either "scale to fit" or to 1/4"=1'-0" then what is the thought process behind selecting scale to fit? If I plot 1/4"=1'-0" with the proper tools, anyone can build it even without dimensions.

Remember we are talking about construction where the AIA has determined that the tolerence for construction is 1/4" in 12'-0" .. not quite tight enough for me but the industry standard none the less, besides, you can buy 2 pieces of lumber from the same mill and same run and there can be 1/4" difference in their size.

[ronjonp]

We use a 34x22 sheet, assume that the plot scale for a viewport is 1/4" = 1'-0" for a page setup that plots 1:1. A page setup for that same sheet at 1:2 will produce an 11x17 plot, scalable at 1/8" = 1'-0"

This sheet size is great.  

I hate when I get a titleblock that is drawn the same size as the sheet it is supposed to be printed on. This does not allow for printer margins, and cannot be printed to a true half scale on 11x17 paper. Our 34x22 tblock is really 33x21.

[CADaver]

I don't trust them as far as I could pick up their butt at throw it up in the air. You must understand, these contractors are not employed by us (my company), they are employed by the client (our company's client). Frequently the customer hires Bubba and Forest to build their house because they are second cousins on their mother's side and uncles on their fathers side. Rather than have the client be mad at us because the drawings didn't work (they can't be mad at Bubba and Forest cause they're family so it must be or fault) we provide them accurately scaled, always.

And trust them to scale it rather than use the content of the drawing to control construction?  If Bubba and Forrest con't read the bloody drawing, how is it being to scale gonna help??

Oh, and the builder needing to add 2X2, if you have ever seen a set of architectural plans you would know it is not possible to give a dimension in every conceivable direction, some by neccessity (because of lack of room on the paper) must be determined by adding adjacent dimensions.

True, but then our contractors can add.  If I was concerned that the contractor could not sufficiently read and add the the dimensions, I would find a way to annotate the drawing for him.  I certainly would NOT rely on that same guy pulling a tape across a 3rd generation print.

Incedently if he can scale the drawing (with a Dollar Store 3' tape measure) and do the multiplication, why on earth would he not simply say 9'-4" + 2'-8" = 12'-0" ??

You were the one who said they couldn't add 2+2.

I MUST out of neccessity prepare these drawings for ANY idiot that happens to end up using them, to the best of my abilities.

Within reason, sure.

It is neither efficient nor inefficient to plot at 1/4" = 1'-0" anymore than it is to "plot to fit", but I'll bet that given a drawing plotted to 1/4"=1'-0" scale I can build it without the first dimension at all.

Not as accurately as you would with the dimensions, and not within the tolerances required, considering all the factors that effect the scale of the drawing that finally gets to the field.

Construction site in Houston texas.  Show me 1/2 on a 1/4" scaled plot, at 6:30am first Monday in May, then find it again on that same print at 3:30pm in August.  You 1/4" in 12' will get blown away just by the humidity shift.  And that assumes the print was to scale to begin with.  Every photocopy uses optics that can and will effect the scale of the original to the copy, assuming the original hasn't been efected by temperature and humidity.

That aside, in Florida the building code requires scale plotted drawings.

So besides having to meet the requirements of Bubba & Forest (by being able to scale the drawing in the field) I must also meet the requirements of the Florida Building Code.

 Have they provided you with some method for accomplishing such?

We plot the drawings of record "to scale", if for no other reason than it's easy to do.  But that is more out of habit than anything else.  We certainly don't do it with the expectation that anyone in his right mind would attempt to build it by scaling it rather than by the dimensions on the drawing.

If I plot 1/4"=1'-0" with the proper tools, anyone can build it even without dimensions.

Not within the posted tolerances below.

Remember we are talking about construction where the AIA has determined that the tolerence for construction is 1/4" in 12'-0"

I dug around earlier and finally found my old arch scale (high-dollar bamboo core bit o' work, set me back $40 in 1965).  On the 1/4"=1'-0" side, it doesn't show graduations less than 1".  So it would be real hard to find that 1/4" tolerance, even if everythng was perfectly calibrated and controlled for scale.

So my question remains, what purpose (other than code) is plotting to scale??

[t-bear]

Keith....
According to your building code:

§104.2 Drawings and specifications

§104.2.1 Requirements. As required by §104.3.1.1 of the code, two or more copies of specifications, and of drawings drawn to scale with sufficient clarity and detail to indicate the nature and character of the work, shall accompany the application for a permit. .......

Now I'm sure you DRAW to scale and nothing has been said about "plotted to scale"..............
Mebbe that's your out.

[Keith™]

And trust them to scale it rather than use the content of the drawing to control construction?  If Bubba and Forrest con't read the bloody drawing, how is it being to scale gonna help??

I keep all of our master drawings in a controlled environment, AND regardless of whether the field drawings are to scale or not, mine are and we frequently use them.

True, but then our contractors can add.  If I was concerned that the contractor could not sufficiently read and add the the dimensions, I would find a way to annotate the drawing for him. I certainly would NOT rely on that same guy pulling a tape across a 3rd generation print.

We do not copy plans.... The client does not copy plans, if they do, it is at their risk, not mine(ours) We provide as many sets of plans as needed for the completion of the project, and the final set of plans are exactly like the first set of plans. Copying plans produce unexpected results, it is neither encouraged nor condoned.

Incedently if he can scale the drawing (with a Dollar Store 3' tape measure) and do the multiplication, why on earth would he not simply say 9'-4" + 2'-8" = 12'-0" ??

You were the one who said they couldn't add 2+2.

Precisely, and regardless of the reasons the contractor decides to use a scale instead of add dimensions, if he does, so be it. It is his decision. So in your words,  I am simply finding a way to "annotate" the drawing for him, only this annotation is contained on a scale rule.

I MUST out of neccessity prepare these drawings for ANY idiot that happens to end up using them, to the best of my abilities.

Within reason, sure.

Are you suggesting that plotting to scale is unreasonable?

It is neither efficient nor inefficient to plot at 1/4" = 1'-0" anymore than it is to "plot to fit", but I'll bet that given a drawing plotted to 1/4"=1'-0" scale I can build it without the first dimension at all.

Not as accurately as you would with the dimensions, and not within the tolerances required, considering all the factors that effect the scale of the drawing that finally gets to the field.

I have use many drawings in the field for 25 years and I have yet to see ANY that was originally plotted to scale that I could not get a decent dimension from with a scale rule.

Construction site in Houston texas.  Show me 1/2 on a 1/4" scaled plot, at 6:30am first Monday in May, then find it again on that same print at 3:30pm in August.  You 1/4" in 12' will get blown away just by the humidity shift. And that assumes the print was to scale to begin with.  Every photocopy uses optics that can and will effect the scale of the original to the copy, assuming the original hasn't been efected by temperature and humidity.

I am left wondering where this supposed expansion and contraction of paper is happening, is surely does not happen here in Florida, the humidity capital of the world!
At best a 36x24 piece of paper will grow (or shrink) less than 1/8" in the long dimension,  given the average size house is around 60'-0" if we presume that 1/8" growth in the paper the change per inch is a mere .003% and the change over the length of a 60'-0" (15 scaled inches) building is a mere .043 of an inch, scaled to 60'-0" it represents 2" overall length, but even then that is in the worst case, and I have never experienced anything like that.

That aside, in Florida the building code requires scale plotted drawings.

So besides having to meet the requirements of Bubba & Forest (by being able to scale the drawing in the field) I must also meet the requirements of the Florida Building Code.

 Have they provided you with some method for accomplishing such?

It must be plotted to scale, period. If it is not you will not obtain a building permit, as such you would never be able to obtain a building permit in Florida, the building department would laugh you out of the doors, and tell you that when you figure out how to plot to scale come back and talk to them.

We plot the drawings of record "to scale", if for no other reason than it's easy to do.  But that is more out of habit than anything else.  We certainly don't do it with the expectation that anyone in his right mind would attempt to build it by scaling it rather than by the dimensions on the drawing.

So if I were to use a scale rule I would be what? crazy? out of my mind? I guess our ancestors were all out of their mind too, using slide rules ans scales......

If I plot 1/4"=1'-0" with the proper tools, anyone can build it even without dimensions.

Not within the posted tolerances below.

I'd be willing to put a wager on that one but it would be a sucker bet. There are many things you evidently do not understand about architectural construction.

I dug around earlier and finally found my old arch scale (high-dollar bamboo core bit o' work, set me back $40 in 1965).  On the 1/4"=1'-0" side, it doesn't show graduations less than 1".  So it would be real hard to find that 1/4" tolerance, even if everythng was perfectly calibrated and controlled for scale.

So my question remains, what purpose (other than code) is plotting to scale??

The only answer I can offer you is that plotting to scale is a tool that is both effective and simple, it has worked for many years and I doubt it will change anytime soon, much like rubber tires, they work, don't worry about it. Besides you are not the one getting his hind end chewed out because Bubba scaled a drawing and built something wrong because the drawing was plotted to fit, not to scale.

So, riddle me this ....do you print a scale factor on your plans? After all if you pring 1/4" = 1'-0" and plot it to fit, it is no longet 1/4" = 1'-0" now is it.

Now I'm sure you DRAW to scale and nothing has been said about "plotted to scale"..............

The building code makes no distinction between hand drawn and CAD drawn plans, to it all plans are equal as far as scale is concerned, the building officials charged with administering the code will refuse any drawings not able to be scaled with a standard scale rule. There are no exceptions.

If I were to challenge the Southern Building Code Congress and/or the Department of Community Affairs (which administers the FBC) I would see my license revoked so fast I wouldn't know what happened. If that didn't happen, I would be given preferential treatment by the local building officials in the "deviation" department, and you never want that, it can cost you thousands upon thousands of dollars on the project. It is essentially a no win situation. Even if you win, it will cost you big time the next time you go into the building department office.

[Dent Cermak]

The only assumption that a drafter should make is that the PM's and end users are all total friggin idiots and thus evey line in the drawing MUST be labeled and/or dimensioned. The second rule to remember is, when preparing a drawing for an Architect you must take GREAT PAINS to insure that the overall exterior dimension NEVER equals the sum of the interior dimensions. They are not used to this. Never confuse an architect. It's not a pretty sight. The third rule is take your site plan and mirror it. Erase the original lines. By the time you get it back from the Architect and he has rotated it to "fit his sheet" and has moved the world to 0,0, it will be back on the original coordinate system.  

[Keith™]

Actually I just like to make everything anonymous blocks, then mirror them left to right and top to bottom so they look right, then put them in another anonymous block,  one this is done if the next user trys to explode it, AutoCAD locks up tighter than well... a drum...
mirrored nested anonymous blocks plays hell with exploding ... it gets 'em every time.