Author Topic: * * Public announce * *  (Read 16367 times)

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Andrea

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* * Public announce * *
« on: March 17, 2007, 09:25:49 PM »
First and foremost, I want to apologize personally about the delay before making a public announcement. We were busy tying up the loose ends on our side. It will take a few more weeks before our website comes online.

I want to use the opportunity to disclose some information, including our strategy. We firmly believe that the community has the right to know and understand where we are coming from, where we stand and where we are headed to.

DuctiSoft Inc is a privately held Canadian company founded on January 13th 2007. Its primary mission is to develop and promote ObjectDCL as a development platform for building tools dedicated to the AutoCAD environment that provide productivity gains. The board of administrators and executive officers are responding to the company stakeholders and to the community of users.

I, Martin Leduc, am a Canadian software engineer with telecommunication industry background. I bring with me years of expertise in research and development, software engineering processes, software test automation and the operation of quality control tools. The projects I worked on managed to rival the performance of the best software company on metrics such as defect rate per line of source code and long term defect rate per man-month.

In order to ensure the continuity of the product life, we studied several business models to find what could best promote the interest of the community, be a viable venture and mobilize the necessary resources to have ObjectDCL reach its full potential.

Part of the process, all options had been visited, including the continuation of the open source project and reliance on closed source development. First, open source projects require a strong core team dedicated to maintaining intellectual control on code change. Second, the most successful open source projects are backed by giant software companies (1). Getting the best minds to display interest to an open source project is expensive (2) as there is competition with other commercial activities they are already engaged into. Third, there is no giant software company backing up ObjectDCL. We can safely say that open source projects can see significant contributions from individuals and evolve quickly. However, the lack of intellectual control on changes can lead to fragile, unmanageable and bloated projects. This has more dire consequences for API projects as opposed to applications. In any case, adopters tend to be rarer in such case, and for good cause.

It is with great regret that we chose to have the GPL license revoked (3) as a condition of buying the rights on the product. We felt that in the eventuality of the open source project evolving in parallel to closed source development, we, as prospect buyer of all copyrights, would retain the moral obligation to manage it ourselves, to maintain intellectual control for it to grow to its full potential. We believe the termination of previously granted rights on the source code is the proper way to ensure the best use of our resources, which otherwise risked to be stretched thin and thus distancing us all from the primary mission.

An incorporated company seems the most efficient mean to jump start a new evolutionary cycle for ObjectDCL. As I mentioned earlier, ObjectDCL’s primary purpose is to generate productivity gains. It is reasonable to mobilize a portion of these gains and funnel it through intense development by a full-time staff. Also, it becomes possible to provide professional services, and to negotiate and share risk in introducing much needed features. All of which can serve to further the development of ObjectDCL. It is more difficult, riskier and less efficient to realize this with other types of organization.

The business model could change in the future, but at this moment, it is the form it will take.

Regards,

Martin Leduc, P.E.
Vice-President
DuctiSoft Inc.


DISCLAMER
AutoCAD is a trademark of Autodesk Inc. ObjectDCL is a trademark of DuctiSoft Inc.
Further, this document does not constitute legal advice and MUST NOT be used as substitute for the advice of a lawyer qualified in the particular areas of law to which this document relates. It expresses opinions and information that are provided in good faith.
(1) Open Office is supported by Sun Microsystems. Eclipse was initiated and supported by IBM and now has 115 member companies providing funding. (www.eclispe.org)
(2) The eclipse project requires millions of US dollars for its functioning in financial and staff resources. (http://www-128.ibm.com/developerworks/rational/library/nov05/cernosek/ and www.eclipse.org)
(3) International copyright laws grants the right to the author to revoke any license at any time and of any form (including GPL), unless an irrevocable grant of rights is registered to a proper legal body.
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Chuck Gabriel

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Re: * * Public announce * *
« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2007, 10:03:31 PM »
F.U.D.  ala SCO group, Microsoft, et. al.

Maverick®

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Re: * * Public announce * *
« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2007, 10:32:42 PM »
  Can someone copyright all of the help Andrea has gotten for FREE here over the last few years?

  I'm just a non-programmer asking silly questions here.   :wink: :-)

Maverick®

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Re: * * Public announce * *
« Reply #3 on: March 17, 2007, 10:39:28 PM »
Andrea, Please read this post.


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uncoolperson

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Re: * * Public announce * *
« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2007, 11:25:32 PM »
anybody else feel a sharp stabbing pain in the back?
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BazzaCAD

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Re: * * Public announce * *
« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2007, 12:22:43 AM »
anybody else feel a sharp stabbing pain in the back?

Actually no, I find it pretty funny.  :lmao:
With over 150+ bugs killed in OpenDCL, including a number of long standing ObjectDCL 3.0 bugs & with 2 lead developer & 12+ beta testers, I find it hard to believe OpenDCL is a "fragile, unmanageable and bloated project".

I'd like to hear more from DuctiSoft Inc. "board of administrators and executive officers" other then Andrea & Martin, or are they the President, VP, board of administrators, executive officers, lead developers, & beta testers all rolled into one?
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Keith™

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Re: * * Public announce * *
« Reply #6 on: March 18, 2007, 02:55:59 AM »
Personally I think that if Andrea can make a profitable venture from this then good for him.

I don't understand why you folks feel that way .. unless you were part of the original development team or the ongoing maintenence team, then I see no reason to feel that way.

Sure, the removal from GPL means no more free reign with the code and/or executables, but unless you have invested something into the program, you have little room for complaint. Remember, every software license that you purchase is nothing more than the right to use the software ... that right can be revoked at any time ... In fact, if you look at the Autodesk license agreement, if you are on subscription, once you decide to not renew a subscription, you are legally bound to no longer use the software .. (i.e. your license expires with your subscription)

It just so happens that the GPL is being revoked and as such your license has just expired. No matter how you feel on the matter, that is the way it is ...

Personally I find GPL similar to socialism or communism ... take from those that have and give to those that do not have ... uh .. no ... you give me what you want to give me ... and I should be thankful for the gifts I receive from you ... but I should never take them for granted ... and when I begin to EXPECT things, you should cease to give.

Personally I would never release anything under GPL ... even if it meant that the code would become better .. because better code doesn't put groceries on the table.
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Kerry

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Re: * * Public announce * *
« Reply #7 on: March 18, 2007, 04:54:56 AM »
Keith, active members of this site who were long term licensed users of the original product, and others,  are heavily committed to the continued development of OpenDCL  .. and yes this involves a heavy investment of time and intellectual talent.

You may want to have a look at this
http://discussion.autodesk.com/thread.jspa?threadID=486856
I'll point you to first post and the last 10 or so.



« Last Edit: March 18, 2007, 04:58:08 AM by Kerry Brown »
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Kerry

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Re: * * Public announce * *
« Reply #8 on: March 18, 2007, 05:00:14 AM »
............. The board of administrators and executive officers are responding to the company stakeholders and to the community of users.
...............

Just who is included in the 'community of users' that you are responding to. ??

 
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Kerry

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Re: * * Public announce * *
« Reply #9 on: March 18, 2007, 05:25:07 AM »
Just to make my personal position perfectly clear.

If OpenDCL does not continue I will not be using ObjectDCL. My experience with broken promises regarding the release of a version for AC2007 and my subsequent direct and indirect financial losses have taught me a lesson. When coupled with my knowledge of one of the principals gleaned from the exchanges answering his coding questions guarantee that I will not be renewing my license. 
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Chuck Gabriel

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Re: * * Public announce * *
« Reply #10 on: March 18, 2007, 08:39:47 AM »
It just so happens that the GPL is being revoked and as such your license has just expired. No matter how you feel on the matter, that is the way it is ...

We've been over this before Keith.

Quote
Can the developer of a program who distributed it under the GPL later license it to another party for exclusive use?
    No, because the public already has the right to use the program under the GPL, and this right cannot be withdrawn.

From The GPL FAQ.

Keith™

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Re: * * Public announce * *
« Reply #11 on: March 18, 2007, 11:19:38 AM »
Sure, I know what the GPL says, but what is on paper seldom is what a court will decide.

The Autodesk example ... you have a license to use AutoCAD .. that license is paid for, and it can be revoked .. how much simpler is it to revoke a license not paid for.

I went through this in 1999. I was advised that the software I developed could be used by others only as long as I allowed them to use it. In the end, a court order to a company to stop using my code because I had expressly forbid them from using it any longer was all that was needed. I don't think there is much difference here.
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TimSpangler

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Re: * * Public announce * *
« Reply #12 on: March 18, 2007, 11:53:08 AM »
So lets understand something.  How will /not this affect the development of OpenDCL?  If I understand correctly this should have no bearing on the open source project that is OpenDCL, Correct?  This is only referring to ObjectDCL?  I certianly hope so, I am just starting to get into the OpenDCL.

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John Kaul (Se7en)

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Re: * * Public announce * *
« Reply #13 on: March 18, 2007, 12:33:12 PM »
That is correct. Open is a fork in Object.
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It's Alive!

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Re: * * Public announce * *
« Reply #14 on: March 18, 2007, 12:35:29 PM »
<silly comment removed>

Hey good luck to you guys at DuctiSoft Inc. I really hope you can make a killer app for a fair price.
Even though I have a pretty high “defect rate per line of source code” I am going to continue rolling my own for now.
I think some of us here are a little too gun shy to take on the risk of using proprietary software from an unknown company.
Personally I would feel much safer with an open source model. 

« Last Edit: March 18, 2007, 02:00:56 PM by Danielm103 »

Mark

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Re: * * Public announce * *
« Reply #15 on: March 18, 2007, 02:03:43 PM »
So Andrea/Martin Leduc what does this mean for the current ObjectDCL users?
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Mark

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Re: * * Public announce * *
« Reply #16 on: March 18, 2007, 02:22:42 PM »
Quote from: Andrea
First, open source projects require a strong core team dedicated to maintaining intellectual control on code change.
True! Just like any business, without the basic structure you would have chaos.

Quote from: Andrea
Second, the most successful open source projects are backed by giant software companies
Name one.

Quote from: Andrea
Getting the best minds to display interest to an open source project is expensive
No they do it for the love of the project, programming, challenge, etc.. I don't know of any developers off hand, although I'm sure there are some, who do get paid for their work on an open source project.

Quote from: Andrea
(2) as there is competition with other commercial activities they are already engaged into.
No ... I don't think so. As I understand it many of these developers sign contracts with the company they work for, if they develop software that conflicts with the companies then they lose their job.

Anyway I wish you the best of luck Andrea.
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CmdrDuh

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Re: * * Public announce * *
« Reply #17 on: March 18, 2007, 04:01:50 PM »
  Can someone copyright all of the help Andrea has gotten for FREE here over the last few years?

  I'm just a non-programmer asking silly questions here.   :wink: :-)
Ditto.  Seems like this happened somewhere else also.  If he can make it work, good for him, but I hate to see people who give help for free go unnoticed in the end.  It would be nice if all the help he recieved over the years was rewarded with free copies of what he is selling now.
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DW

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Re: * * Public announce * *
« Reply #18 on: March 18, 2007, 05:08:46 PM »
First and foremost, I want to apologize personally about the delay before making a public announcement.

Why the public announcement? Does it really matter? 

The proprietary model didn't work out and left a lot of people in the lurch. Chad recognised this was not acceptable and released ObjectDCL as open source. The outcome of this is that now there is a tool which is working well and has some new foundations to allow it to continue to evolve.

If the intention of these pronouncements is to confuse the issue and bring into question the viability and legality of OpenDCL, Ductisoft seem to be having some success.  Understandably, the open source project will be a significant threat to the viability of their project.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2007, 05:16:31 PM by DW »

Keith™

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Re: * * Public announce * *
« Reply #19 on: March 18, 2007, 08:14:07 PM »
I think there may be some misconceptions, I know Andrea has received lots of help in these forums in the past, so have I ... as has just about every other person inthis group. If you have not received any help from this forum, then you must be the smart ones. Should the fact that someone, anyone, receives or received help from someone else have any bearing on what someone does with something they bought and paid for? Please all of the moaning and groaning is making me sick ... it isn't like anyone here .. not one single person that I know of, has provided a single line of code or a single resolution to a problem with regards to ObjectDCL. In fact, if you did, then your complaint isn't with Andrea, it is with the person who owned the copyright (Chad) prior to SELLING it to Andrea and Ductisoft.

If you have received help from here on any project and used it to generate income, then you are guilty of the same thing you are insinuating he is guilty of ... get over it already ... if you like it so much and think you can do better, why havn't you written your own by now.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2007, 08:16:05 PM by Keith™ »
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Chuck Gabriel

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Re: * * Public announce * *
« Reply #20 on: March 18, 2007, 08:23:39 PM »
It seems to me that at least one purpose of the announcement (if not the primary purpose) was to spread FUD (Fear Uncertainty and Doubt) about the legitimacy and future of OpenDCL, just as DW suggested.  It is a very underhanded and cowardly tactic used by those who do not believe they can compete merely on the merits of their own work.  I also believe (and hope) that it will fail to accomplish its goal of undermining the good work that is being done on OpenDCL.  However much DuctiSoft may wish it were not so, Chad could not grant them exclusive rights to the code once it had been released under GPL, and all the veiled threats in the world will not change that fact.  Perhaps DuctiSoft should consult with an actual attorney before they go about making any more outrageous claims.

Kerry

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Re: * * Public announce * *
« Reply #21 on: March 18, 2007, 09:06:36 PM »
... it isn't like anyone here .. not one single person that I know of, has provided a single line of code or a single resolution to a problem with regards to ObjectDCL. ..

Keith,
You now know of one.

... and my issue is not with Chad, it's with attempts being made stop my involvement with OpenDCL development.
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Serge J. Gianolla

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Re: * * Public announce * *
« Reply #22 on: March 18, 2007, 09:10:36 PM »
I think there may be some misconceptions, I know Andrea has received lots of help in these forums in the past, so have I ... as has just about every other person inthis group. If you have not received any help from this forum, then you must be the smart ones. Should the fact that someone, anyone, receives or received help from someone else have any bearing on what someone does with something they bought and paid for? Please all of the moaning and groaning is making me sick ... it isn't like anyone here .. not one single person that I know of, has provided a single line of code or a single resolution to a problem with regards to ObjectDCL. In fact, if you did, then your complaint isn't with Andrea, it is with the person who owned the copyright (Chad) prior to SELLING it to Andrea and Ductisoft.

If you have received help from here on any project and used it to generate income, then you are guilty of the same thing you are insinuating he is guilty of ... get over it already ... if you like it so much and think you can do better, why havn't you written your own by now.

Couldn't have said it better myself! It is amazing that common sense re difference between help given and purchase of entirely different software had to be explained though, don't you think? :kewl:

Serge J. Gianolla

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Re: * * Public announce * *
« Reply #23 on: March 18, 2007, 09:12:33 PM »
It seems to me that at least one purpose of the announcement (if not the primary purpose) was to spread FUD (Fear Uncertainty and Doubt) about the legitimacy and future of OpenDCL, just as DW suggested.  It is a very underhanded and cowardly tactic used by those who do not believe they can compete merely on the merits of their own work.  I also believe (and hope) that it will fail to accomplish its goal of undermining the good work that is being done on OpenDCL.  However much DuctiSoft may wish it were not so, Chad could not grant them exclusive rights to the code once it had been released under GPL, and all the veiled threats in the world will not change that fact.  Perhaps DuctiSoft should consult with an actual attorney before they go about making any more outrageous claims.
The Irish have a saying "A thief does not trust noone"! Cogitate on this and understand what you will :evil:

Chuck Gabriel

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Re: * * Public announce * *
« Reply #24 on: March 18, 2007, 09:33:09 PM »
It seems to me that at least one purpose of the announcement (if not the primary purpose) was to spread FUD (Fear Uncertainty and Doubt) about the legitimacy and future of OpenDCL, just as DW suggested.  It is a very underhanded and cowardly tactic used by those who do not believe they can compete merely on the merits of their own work.  I also believe (and hope) that it will fail to accomplish its goal of undermining the good work that is being done on OpenDCL.  However much DuctiSoft may wish it were not so, Chad could not grant them exclusive rights to the code once it had been released under GPL, and all the veiled threats in the world will not change that fact.  Perhaps DuctiSoft should consult with an actual attorney before they go about making any more outrageous claims.
The Irish have a saying "A thief does not trust noone"! Cogitate on this and understand what you will :evil:

Takes one to know one, eh?  Point out a single instance where I have ever tried to deceive or intimidate anyone here or any place else in my life, and I will humbly submit to your accusation.  I think you'll have a hard time making your case.

I admit I could be wrong about all of this, but the facts so far appear to confirm my suspicions.  It certainly wouldn't be the first time someone in the software industry tried to use those types of tactics to ensure their competition was still-born, so please forgive me if I see conspiracy where none exists.  Call me a cynic if you like, but please don't call me a thief.

Serge J. Gianolla

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Re: * * Public announce * *
« Reply #25 on: March 18, 2007, 09:49:34 PM »
It seems to me that at least one purpose of the announcement (if not the primary purpose) was to spread FUD (Fear Uncertainty and Doubt) about the legitimacy and future of OpenDCL, just as DW suggested.  It is a very underhanded and cowardly tactic used by those who do not believe they can compete merely on the merits of their own work.  I also believe (and hope) that it will fail to accomplish its goal of undermining the good work that is being done on OpenDCL.  However much DuctiSoft may wish it were not so, Chad could not grant them exclusive rights to the code once it had been released under GPL, and all the veiled threats in the world will not change that fact.  Perhaps DuctiSoft should consult with an actual attorney before they go about making any more outrageous claims.
The Irish have a saying "A thief does not trust noone"! Cogitate on this and understand what you will :evil:

Takes one to know one, eh?  Point out a single instance where I have ever tried to deceive or intimidate anyone here or any place else in my life, and I will humbly submit to your accusation.  I think you'll have a hard time making your case.

I admit I could be wrong about all of this, but the facts so far appear to confirm my suspicions.  It certainly wouldn't be the first time someone in the software industry tried to use those types of tactics to ensure their competition was still-born, so please forgive me if I see conspiracy where none exists.  Call me a cynic if you like, but please don't call me a thief.

Chuck, I never accused you of being a thief, I do not even know you! "Understand what you will" was more to make people think that the saying is not cornering one category but is applicable to broad spectrum. In short, if someone is innocent, he/she will see innocence everywhere!

BazzaCAD

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Re: * * Public announce * *
« Reply #26 on: March 18, 2007, 09:53:56 PM »
... it isn't like anyone here .. not one single person that I know of, has provided a single line of code or a single resolution to a problem with regards to ObjectDCL.

Keith, Owen has done 90% if the coding in OpenDCL. You can find 1 of his posts here. http://www.theswamp.org/index.php?topic=15390.msg186793#msg186793 He doesn't say much here since he's too busy getting no sleep while he works on OpenDCL. So that's 2 people working on OpenDCL + me so that's 3 that you now know of.
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Chuck Gabriel

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Re: * * Public announce * *
« Reply #27 on: March 18, 2007, 10:02:38 PM »
In short, if someone is innocent, he/she will see innocence everywhere!

So if I see dishonesty and cowardice, it must be because I'm a dishonest coward?  Sounds like I understood you perfectly well the first time to me.

For the record, I do not have a problem with DuctiSoft trying to make a buck selling ObjectDCL and distributing it under whatever license their deal with Chad allows.  I DO have a problem with them claiming rights they do not actually have and trying to discredit/intimidate OpenDCL's developers and users.

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Re: * * Public announce * *
« Reply #28 on: March 18, 2007, 10:03:15 PM »
Barry, I thought Keith's post referred to Chad's Original ObjectDCL, and that was what I answered to. If he was referring to OpenDCL, my post still stands, I guess :-)
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Keith™

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Re: * * Public announce * *
« Reply #29 on: March 18, 2007, 10:27:38 PM »
... it isn't like anyone here .. not one single person that I know of, has provided a single line of code or a single resolution to a problem with regards to ObjectDCL. ..

Keith,
You now know of one.

... and my issue is not with Chad, it's with attempts being made stop my involvement with OpenDCL development.


I stand corrected on that point ... however the real issue is whether OpenDCL (as a derivative works of ObjectDCL) is subject to license revocation, if it is indeed possible ... I have read many law blogs where the licensing issue has been discussed. The general consensus is that as the copyright holder, you may do whatever you want with regards to the license, since it is a license and not a contract (at least there is a distinction under US law) Under contract law, the contractor must receive consideration from the contractee for there to be a binding contract. There is also the issue of third parties distributing software that uses GPL code. While GPL does state that the license holder may distribute it, US Code 301 would likely preempt and cause the licenses of the sublicensees to be null and void. The legal discussions have my head spinning at the moment.

And as far as who you should be upset with, I would say Chad is the guy .. especially since revocation of GPL was a condition for the purchase of ObjectDCL. If you don't see it that way, then I don't know what to say about that except, if that IF revocation of GPL was a condition of the transaction between him and Ductisoft, then he would have been the one who would have made the decision to revoke the license.

If I tell you that as a condition of an agreement we may reach on a contract for purchase that you must do "this" or "that", when you choose to accept my offer, you are then responsible for the act of doing whatever "this" or "that" was.
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Kerry

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Re: * * Public announce * *
« Reply #30 on: March 18, 2007, 10:48:11 PM »
......... And as far as who you should be upset with, I would say Chad is the guy ..

For the last time, I have no issue with Chad.
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Chuck Gabriel

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Re: * * Public announce * *
« Reply #31 on: March 18, 2007, 10:59:41 PM »
......... And as far as who you should be upset with, I would say Chad is the guy ..

For the last time, I have no issue with Chad.

But Kerry, how do you feel about Chad? :D

Seriously though, who knows what terms were discussed and what promises were made?  I certainly don't, and, though I am loathe to admit it in light of statements I've already made, it's difficult to determine what is really going on without that information.

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Re: * * Public announce * *
« Reply #32 on: March 18, 2007, 11:05:25 PM »
For the record, I have read the posts here.  I'm glad to see that DuctiSOFT is finally making an effort to introduce themselves.  A public statement, even one that raises more questions, is better than silence.

I regret that DuctiSOFT have chosen a different path, but I note that Mr. Leduc has left open the possibility of reevaluating their decision in the future.  I don't see much benefit in arguing the legal points of a claimed GPL license revocation on an internet discussion forum, but suffice to say that OpenDCL development will continue.  In the meantime, I'm inclined to give DuctiSOFT every opportunity to prove that they deserve the trust and respect of the OpenDCL community. :)

BazzaCAD

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Re: * * Public announce * *
« Reply #33 on: March 19, 2007, 01:06:26 AM »
Nicely said Owen. Not only are you an amazing programmer, you always know what to say.  :-)
a.k.a. Barry Ralphs

CAB

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Re: * * Public announce * *
« Reply #34 on: March 19, 2007, 08:41:00 AM »
Owen,
A belated "Welcome to TheSwamp", glad to see you here.
I've reached the age where the happy hour is a nap. (°¿°)
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Kerry

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Re: * * Public announce * *
« Reply #35 on: March 19, 2007, 08:44:49 AM »
yep. calm rationaliity is refreshing.

*walks away humbled.
Perfection is not optional.
Everything will work just as you expect it to, unless your expectations are incorrect.
Discipline: None at all.

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