Author Topic: In for a tough time  (Read 30320 times)

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Nathan Taylor

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Re: In for a tough time
« Reply #60 on: March 06, 2007, 07:54:26 PM »
Are you talking about the VB.NET documentation itself or AutoCAD .NET documentation? As far as I'm concerned, the Microsoft Visual Studio Documentation and Platform SDK documentation are excellent.

ARX isn't as well 'documented' as the other API's in a certain lightl, because, it's an advanced topic and the docs assume an advanced level of reader from the start, if that makes sense. However, all the API calls are there and the acad .net implemenation just wraps those.


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Re: In for a tough time
« Reply #61 on: March 06, 2007, 07:57:13 PM »
.... because eventually I would like to learn C++.

jjs

If you are planning to learn C++ eventually, you might take a look at using C++ and C++/CLR . Here you can get the most bang for the buck by being able to use either pure managed, pure unmanaged and mixed managed - unmanaged code.  It’s much harder to learn and not as user friendly as C# or VB.NET but you will have the most control. I am learning both C++/CLR and C# and so far I have found it fairly easy to jump between the two.

Another great reason to learn a C dialect is it makes it much easier to understand the sample code in the ARX documentation, which can be helpful in learning the AutoCAD API.

Have fun

See http://www.theswamp.org/index.php?topic=14266.msg171894#msg171894

Nathan Taylor

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Re: In for a tough time
« Reply #62 on: March 06, 2007, 07:57:34 PM »

yes.

and this is where the topic started  .. anyone aiming to develop in .NET has to do some serious study/investigation/reading/GestaltLeaps to be effective.
Cut and Paste VB/VBA code into VB.NET will not do it !


Agreed.

MickD

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Re: In for a tough time
« Reply #63 on: March 06, 2007, 08:11:10 PM »
don't forget, there's always COM is is that going to be canned in the near future too?
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Chuck Gabriel

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Re: In for a tough time
« Reply #64 on: March 06, 2007, 08:12:12 PM »
When .NET was still relatively new, I read opinions from several well-respected members of the AutoCAD development community that all agreed that VB.NET was dissimilar enough to VB6/VBA that learning it would be akin to learning an entirely new language.  Based on that presumption (which I took at face value at the time), these folks all seemed to also agree that if we were going to be learning a new language anyway, we might as well learn the one that Microsoft seemed to be pouring the bulk of their efforts into, C#.  Even had I not already been drawn over to the dark side by C++ and ObjectARX, the weight of all those expert opinions probably would have convinced me to choose C# over VB.NET.

However, since I never have taken a serious look at VB.NET, I have to admit that it is possible my mentors may have overstated the differences between VB6 and VB.NET.  Nathan certainly seems to think so, and I seem to recall that he is a fairly capable programmer in his own right, so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.  I bet if he ever made the switch, he'd never look back though. :-)

Nathan Taylor

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Re: In for a tough time
« Reply #65 on: March 06, 2007, 08:29:27 PM »
When .NET was still relatively new, I read opinions from several well-respected members of the AutoCAD development community that all agreed that VB.NET was dissimilar enough to VB6/VBA that learning it would be akin to learning an entirely new language.  Based on that presumption (which I took at face value at the time), these folks all seemed to also agree that if we were going to be learning a new language anyway, we might as well learn the one that Microsoft seemed to be pouring the bulk of their efforts into, C#.  Even had I not already been drawn over to the dark side by C++ and ObjectARX, the weight of all those expert opinions probably would have convinced me to choose C# over VB.NET.

However, since I never have taken a serious look at VB.NET, I have to admit that it is possible my mentors may have overstated the differences between VB6 and VB.NET.  Nathan certainly seems to think so, and I seem to recall that he is a fairly capable programmer in his own right, so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.  I bet if he ever made the switch, he'd never look back though. :-)

Thanks for the kind words. I do believe in the merits of C# but have personally made an easy transition to VB.NET (understanding the AutoCAD .NET API has been a challenge) and actually like the syntax. This is why I feel strongly about personal preference.

One other thing that was touted early on in the Adesk groups was that there wouldn't be VB.NET examples. As well as that being untrue I have been able to learn from excellent C# examples by the likes of Tony Tanzillo simply by using an online code converter.

One thing Tony has pointed out in the Adesk groups and that I agree strongly with is API training. Unfortunately we have none available in Australia and I have not been able to convince the boss to send me overseas.

One of the reasons I transitioned over easily also might be because I did a 5 day VB.NET course and have bought books on VB.NET, ADO.NET and Crystal Reports for VS.NET.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2007, 08:40:55 PM by Nathan Taylor »

Kerry

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Re: In for a tough time
« Reply #66 on: March 06, 2007, 08:46:17 PM »
Nathan, similar to Chuck, I'm not questioning your efficacy or aptitude.

Because most of us do learn to a degree by osmosis, the issue of samples is interesting.
I recall back in the day learning lisp, before the internet, { no laughing } I think it was easier to learn then because I had to work it out myself essentially. Currently there are examples of almost everything available on the net. The dilema facing beginners now is choosing GOOD code as a sample .. without the knowledge being discriminating is difficult.

I imagine the same thing will happen with .NET code. At this stage I think there are more examples of good C# code around than of VB.net code .. and at the risk of harping on it, while people continue to engage in cut and paste coding the situation will not improve.

2c
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Kerry

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Re: In for a tough time
« Reply #67 on: March 06, 2007, 08:52:22 PM »
...
One thing Tony has pointed out in the Adesk groups and that I agree strongly with is API training. Unfortunately we have none available in Australia and I have not been able to convince the boss to send me overseas.

I've mentioned this to some people (who shall remain nameless) at AutoDesk. I'm hoping we get to see some videos and transcripts .. but am not holding my breath just yet. I do believe the powers that be recognise the importance of information dissemination .. but it has been difficult for them while the product has been in a state of flux.
kdub, kdub_nz in other timelines.
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Discipline: None at all.

Bryco

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Re: In for a tough time
« Reply #68 on: March 07, 2007, 01:27:12 AM »
After looking at net for a couple of hours, it looked a little to me like it was enough work just adding all the header stuff that I would start with vb than move to c# later as the header stuff looked so similar anyway. Instead of making a truly logical decision, I'll probably go with the C# as I've just invested $5.50 in a secondhand  net book recommended by Kerry. I mean to say there's no going back after $5.50

Kerry

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Re: In for a tough time
« Reply #69 on: March 07, 2007, 03:10:46 AM »
hehehe

Don't blame me !
That's too much responsibility on my shoulders :-)

I hope you enjoy the trip Bryco .. I'm sure you will.
kdub, kdub_nz in other timelines.
Perfection is not optional.
Everything will work just as you expect it to, unless your expectations are incorrect.
Discipline: None at all.

Draftek

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Re: In for a tough time
« Reply #70 on: March 07, 2007, 08:24:00 AM »
Daniel,

Thanks for the idea - managed C++!

I hope you have time to document your progress using this. I would be very interested as you have me thinking of doing the same thing...

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Re: In for a tough time
« Reply #71 on: March 07, 2007, 08:53:17 AM »
Daniel,

Thanks for the idea - managed C++!

I hope you have time to document your progress using this. I would be very interested as you have me thinking of doing the same thing...

Its loads of fun. I have started goofing around with C++/CLR and mixing managed & unmanaged code little here. http://www.theswamp.org/index.php?topic=14124.msg170254#msg170254 But beware as this was my first attempt.  :ugly:


Draftek

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Re: In for a tough time
« Reply #72 on: March 07, 2007, 08:58:33 AM »
Thanks,

I don't know how I missed that.

jjs

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Re: In for a tough time
« Reply #73 on: March 07, 2007, 09:46:09 AM »
Good points Kerry.

A couple of mine own:

1. More of MS's effort *appears* to be behind C# - the reason: To attract the C++ crowd.
2. Because of 1. above, C# has always had more features and 'syntactic sugar' than VB.net has - operator overloading anyone?
3. C# and VB.net certainly DO NOT compile to the same IL code in some circumstances.
4. The syntax for C# was derived from C/C++/Java, so learning it's syntax will definately help you if you want to study some of the others.
5. There are still features available only to C# - iterators and yield I believe.

I'm definately with Chuck on this one.

Cheers,
Glenn.
This is the kind of info I was really looking for. Thanks Glenn
Ok, So I wasted 4 hours on VB.net training videos, plus the time it took to install VB.net. I have c# installed. Now I just need to find a source for C# syntax. Does anyone know of a good C# syntax source?
Is there a table that shows the vb syntax on one side and the c# syntax for the same thing on the other side?
VB.net                                                              :wink:               C#
Dim intVar as integer                                           :wink:               Int intvar = 0;
Function foo(ByRef val as Double) as Double            :wink:               double foo(double& val)

I also assume C# is case sensitive. I know that will get me.

Kerry

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Re: In for a tough time
« Reply #74 on: March 07, 2007, 02:33:33 PM »
Jeremie,

MSDN has some pretty good resources for both VB and C# learning ..
They are in the middle of changing web sites and the new site does not have all references yet.

http://lab.msdn.microsoft.com/TryMsdn/Library.aspx?uniqueid=ms06xk7d&newpull=http%3a%2f%2fmsdn2.microsoft.com%2fen-us%2fvcsharp%2faa336809.aspx

http://blogs.msdn.com/csharpfaq/default.aspx

« Last Edit: March 07, 2007, 02:35:02 PM by Kerry Brown »
kdub, kdub_nz in other timelines.
Perfection is not optional.
Everything will work just as you expect it to, unless your expectations are incorrect.
Discipline: None at all.