Author Topic: In for a tough time  (Read 18809 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Kerry

  • Mesozoic relic
  • Seagull
  • Posts: 11654
  • class keyThumper<T>:ILazy<T>
In for a tough time
« on: February 22, 2007, 05:28:11 PM »

I think some people are going to have a tough time.

I'm seeing people who hardly understand VBA trying to convert to VB.NET and expecting to learn NET overnight without studying.

This change takes time and effort guys !!  ... but with the associated benefits ... spend the time and do it correctly.

 :|  I've just about decided I shouldn't be even looking at VB code from today onwards.



Perfection is not optional.
Everything will work just as you expect it to, unless your expectations are incorrect.
Discipline: None at all.

--> Donate to theSwamp<--

TR

  • Guest
Re: In for a tough time
« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2007, 05:42:00 PM »
You don't need to study something to learn it. There are a lot of people in this world who can't learn things by studying, they need to jump in and start messing around to truly understand it.

MickD

  • Gator
  • Posts: 3441
  • (x-in)->[process]->(y-out)
Re: In for a tough time
« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2007, 06:04:41 PM »
I think the biggest problem isn't so much the language/s as such, it's the huge api that .net brings to the table, then there's the autocad api that probably about doubled (or more) with the introduction of the arx wrappers!
Yes, patience is definitely required and there's a lot to learn, but baby steps (back to basics) is the way to go ;)
Forth is like the Tao: it is a Way, and is realized when followed.
Its fragility is its strength; its simplicity is its direction - Michael Ham

Lao Tzu: “To attain knowledge, add things
every day; to obtain wisdom, remove things every day.”

Glenn R

  • Water Moccasin
  • Posts: 1932
  • What idiot child of married cousins wrote this?!
Re: In for a tough time
« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2007, 06:19:43 PM »
I agree wholeheartedly there Kerry.
Me

Glenn R

  • Water Moccasin
  • Posts: 1932
  • What idiot child of married cousins wrote this?!
Re: In for a tough time
« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2007, 08:01:31 AM »
You don't need to study something to learn it.
< blink >
That is an oxymoron.

There are a lot of people in this world who can't learn things by studying

Sums up the reason for this thread nicely.

they need to jump in and start messing around to truly understand it.

Which therefore means they ARE studying it then, doesn't it...
« Last Edit: February 26, 2007, 08:05:57 AM by Glenn R »
Me

Keith™

  • Villiage Idiot
  • Seagull
  • Posts: 16828
  • Superior Stupidity at its best
Re: In for a tough time
« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2007, 02:31:10 PM »
they need to jump in and start messing around to truly understand it.

Which therefore means they ARE studying it then, doesn't it...

True, but not in the classical sense ...

Most people associate studying with reading books and trying to apply the information, while I would suspect Tim means more of a "I wonder what happens if I do this" type of scenario ...

I have heard many times that things learned through study are fine, but those learned through experience are exquisite ...
Proud provider of opinion and arrogance since November 22, 2003 at 09:35:31 am
CadJockey Militia Field Marshal

Find me on https://parler.com @kblackie

jmaeding

  • Bull Frog
  • Posts: 304
  • I'm just here for the Shelties.
Re: In for a tough time
« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2007, 03:17:43 PM »
One problem is lack of simple examples.  There is no such thing as a super simple .net prog.
At a minimum, you must set up VS or whatever compiler to use the right references, and debug settings (loadlock thing).
Getting over that first hump, and understanding the minimum to replicate that from scratch, takes more than in the past.
I do think the adesk labs and these forums do a good job of helping, its just that people are expecting the future to be easier than the past.  IMO, the .net API is much harder than activex.  There is no nice help file for the .nat api like with vba.  The SDK help files do not seem to answer my questions, mine are usually very simple.
Once we get lots of examples going, I think people will pick it up.  I think the difficulty is balanced out by the fact that you only need one language to do decent apps, not like lisp and VBA, where you need objectdcl or a lisp to define the command function to run tha vba.  .net is self contained.
Part of the reason I posted the ChLayColt project was to get people going on the patterns of common use.
James Maeding

Kerry

  • Mesozoic relic
  • Seagull
  • Posts: 11654
  • class keyThumper<T>:ILazy<T>
Re: In for a tough time
« Reply #7 on: February 26, 2007, 03:19:53 PM »
Just to forstall any hijack into the semantic meaning of the word study ;

The object of the exercise, whichever way it's done is to gain knowledge.
If someone is able to gain knowledge of a programming language by experimenting alone ... more power to them.




Perfection is not optional.
Everything will work just as you expect it to, unless your expectations are incorrect.
Discipline: None at all.

--> Donate to theSwamp<--

Keith™

  • Villiage Idiot
  • Seagull
  • Posts: 16828
  • Superior Stupidity at its best
Re: In for a tough time
« Reply #8 on: February 26, 2007, 03:38:22 PM »
Just to forstall any hijack into the semantic meaning of the word study ;

The object of the exercise, whichever way it's done is to gain knowledge.
If someone is able to gain knowledge of a programming language by experimenting alone ... more power to them.





No hijack intended ... carry on with previous discussions ...
Proud provider of opinion and arrogance since November 22, 2003 at 09:35:31 am
CadJockey Militia Field Marshal

Find me on https://parler.com @kblackie

jmaeding

  • Bull Frog
  • Posts: 304
  • I'm just here for the Shelties.
Re: In for a tough time
« Reply #9 on: February 26, 2007, 05:01:04 PM »
Think about this, the first time I got serious about lisp, there was a full book out called "Maximizing Autolisp" (still on my shelf!).
There aint no Maximizing .net book out, and very few people are handing out .net programs to do little things.
I would say .net programming for acad is still pretty young, and this is why its so fun too.
James Maeding

John Kaul (Se7en)

  • Administrator
  • Needs a day job
  • Posts: 9523
Re: In for a tough time
« Reply #10 on: February 26, 2007, 05:16:28 PM »
Would you say that trying to learn a whole new language would be easier then to use a previous VB(a) ``Knowledge'' when making the jump to dotNET? -i.e., Would it be easier to start using, for instance, Boo?
TheSwamp.org (serving the CAD community since 2003)

Donate to TheSwamp.org

Kerry

  • Mesozoic relic
  • Seagull
  • Posts: 11654
  • class keyThumper<T>:ILazy<T>
Re: In for a tough time
« Reply #11 on: February 26, 2007, 05:25:13 PM »
.... Would it be easier to start using, for instance, Boo?

Where would one get peer to peer help for Boo in AutoCAD ?

Perfection is not optional.
Everything will work just as you expect it to, unless your expectations are incorrect.
Discipline: None at all.

--> Donate to theSwamp<--

Glenn R

  • Water Moccasin
  • Posts: 1932
  • What idiot child of married cousins wrote this?!
Re: In for a tough time
« Reply #12 on: February 26, 2007, 06:15:29 PM »
James,

There's one main reason you don't see the C++/ARX developers "handing out" sample programs - it's hard and it takes a LOT of time to master. Once this is done, people are reluctant to release that knowledge to give others a "free ride", so to speak. To be proficient enough in C++ is difficult - add ARX to the mix and you have a whole other level.

Why do I mention this? To draw a parallel. .NET is not easy to begin with either and then you add the AutoCAD side in. Plus, you have more than one language that is suppoed to be able to do exactly the same thing.

And yes, it's a lot of fun.

Just my $2

Cheers,
Glenn.
Me

jmaeding

  • Bull Frog
  • Posts: 304
  • I'm just here for the Shelties.
Re: In for a tough time
« Reply #13 on: February 26, 2007, 06:56:40 PM »
I understand completely, I think this will change a bit with time, code will not be so original after a while.
I remember seeing an entire lisp subroutine library for free on one site, it takes time though.

On the topic of using previous VB knowledge, I would say its much easier to go to .net once you know some activex language.  Its all about objects and inheritance in .net, so at least knowing objects and classes is a big help.
Its really hard for pure lispers to go to .net though, you have to rethink a lot of things as lists are like non-generic collections, not to be used everywhere.  You package data differently in .net.

The thing I hate the most about .net is I have to close and restart acad every debug.  Maybe VSTA for acad will ease the pain someday.  I'd sure like it to make the same dll VS makes, none of this wierd dvb stuff.
James Maeding

John Kaul (Se7en)

  • Administrator
  • Needs a day job
  • Posts: 9523
Re: In for a tough time
« Reply #14 on: February 26, 2007, 08:04:38 PM »
Where would one get peer to peer help for Boo in AutoCAD ?

Good point.
TheSwamp.org (serving the CAD community since 2003)

Donate to TheSwamp.org