Author Topic: Sharing partial MNS in 2007  (Read 9660 times)

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CADaver

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Re: Sharing partial MNS in 2007
« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2007, 07:27:16 PM »
But I really don't think I'm living in a dream world.  Since I have a lot of exprience with Unix systems (Sun systems, NeXT, MacOSX), I actually have a lot of exprience with well-designed software. 
I to have had a lot of experience with other systems including those mentioned.  Please point out this well-designed software you keep talking about.  NONE of the GUI CAD systems with which I am familiar are any better that the one currently plaguing AutoCAD.


I also have a lot of exprience as a software designer, designing easy-to-use GUIs. 
I'm not looking for easy to use, I'm looking for easy to customize

There is really no good reason that someone with a lot of experience in construction should need to spend years learning to use the program that's supposed to make life easier.  Sure, they need to spend years learning the biz, but they shouldn't need to spend years learning the software.
Again, I'm not talking about using the software but customizing it for specific tasks.  I completed editing my first menu for AutoCAD about twenty minutes after installing the software the first time, but then I was already familiar with EDLIN at the time.  It was a lot easier after we installed Word for DOS.


There is actually an awful lot of software that is intuitive and easy-to-use, just not a whole lot of it on the Windows platform.  People who have spent their whole life using Windows don't know what they're missing.
CAD software?? Okay, I'll bite, which would those be?

sinc

  • Guest
Re: Sharing partial MNS in 2007
« Reply #16 on: January 23, 2007, 11:15:40 AM »
CAD software?? Okay, I'll bite, which would those be?

Again, if there were any decent CAD programs for Mac OSX, I would undoubtedly be using that, instead of Autodesk's stuff.  Unfortunately, if there is one, I haven't found it.

But just to give an idea of "good design" vs. "bad design", check out Carlson Survey, and compare it to the survey functionality in Land Desktop.  True, Carlson is built-on Autodesk software, so it's nowhere near as good as it could be if the underlying software were designed as well, but it is FAR more intuitive to use.  Most surveyors can start using Carlson MUCH MUCH faster and easier than they can Land Desktop.  The general comment is that "Carlson seems like it was designed by a surveyor.  Land Desktop seems like it was designed by a software engineer."

And the process continues.  C3D is easier to use than Land Desktop, but a lot of Civil-3D could be much, much simpler than it is.  My own fear is that Autodesk views making software really easy to use would cut into the profits they're getting from selling consulting services and training.  I truely hope I'm wrong about that, but all evidence points toward it being the case.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2007, 11:17:02 AM by sinc »

CADaver

  • Guest
Re: Sharing partial MNS in 2007
« Reply #17 on: January 23, 2007, 11:30:04 AM »
CAD software?? Okay, I'll bite, which would those be?

Again, if there were any decent CAD programs for Mac OSX, I would undoubtedly be using that, instead of Autodesk's stuff.  Unfortunately, if there is one, I haven't found it.
So "dreamworld" is a LOT closer to accurate, we're back to "I have never seen a "well designed GUI". 

But just to give an idea of "good design" vs. "bad design", check out Carlson Survey,...
SurvCADD?? You're kidding right? Have you ever tried to customize that piece of ... of work??

And the process continues.  C3D is easier to use than Land Desktop, ...
You're still looking at "easy to use"..., I'm looking for easy to customize. A GUI for customization that eats a production seat is less than helpful.

Joe Burke

  • Guest
Re: Sharing partial MNS in 2007
« Reply #18 on: January 24, 2007, 10:51:14 AM »
sinc,

Just curious, have you looked at PowerCADD by Engineered Software? It's Mac only CAD program with a loyal following dating back to around 1988. It was called PowerDraw back then, when I used it.

There's an add-on for it called WildTools by a guy named Alfred Scott. He's an old friend. Though it has been about 16 years since I used PowerDraw/PowerCADD, I still converse with Alfred about programming issues. Primarily about interface things.

Regarding Mac vs. Windows, I used Macs for CAD from 1985 to 2000. Almost 10 yeas with Microstation Mac.

To me the OS is meaningless. I'm only interested in what the CAD software can or can't do.

BTW, I liked the feel of the old Mac OS pre OSX. Which is pretty much what Windows is today, with all the good stuff added.

When I look an an OSX machine now, I'm just confused. And I think for no good reason... other than Apple thinks it has to look different.

Also interesting, Apple recently changed it's name from Apple Computer to simply Apple.

cdavis

  • Guest
Re: Sharing partial MNS in 2007
« Reply #19 on: January 24, 2007, 02:30:36 PM »
poor Dan, never really did get his question answered in between the arguing.
I manage a cad system for approx 100 seats over 3 different departments that all wanted something different.  What IS the same for everyone though is exactly what you're trying to do.  (and it isn't problematic, verticals or not.)
After the cui & mnr files are created you can trash the mns.  It's worthless unless you plan on maintaining the same thing in two different places and want to assume autodesk isn't going to do anything strange later on down the road...
Your concerns seems to be everyone sharing the menu, and nobody being able to edit it.  Make it the enterprise menu PLUS store it in a location on the network that only authorized users have Write access to.

and just of note, someone said,
"It's difficult for ANYONE to use this thing, except in a basic fashion."
Uh, no. No it isn't.  It is difficult for YOU.
“Argue for your limitations, and sure enough they're yours.” -Richard Bach

CADaver

  • Guest
Re: Sharing partial MNS in 2007
« Reply #20 on: January 24, 2007, 02:53:02 PM »
I manage a cad system for approx 100 seats over 3 different departments that all wanted something different. 
Try over three hundred users, five departments, twenty-seven clients, each with a completely different set of needs and standards (that worked seamlessly in previous revision without eating a seat of AutoCAD to edit)

What IS the same for everyone though is exactly what you're trying to do.  (and it isn't problematic, verticals or not.)
After the cui & mnr files are created ...
How do you edit the CUI??  (oh, BTW all seats are currently in use)

and just of note, someone said,
"It's difficult for ANYONE to use this thing, except in a basic fashion."
Uh, no. No it isn't.  It is difficult for YOU.
Fair enough, but if you'l just pass over ANY AutoCAD forum since the inception of the poorly thought-out roll-out of CUI, I think you'll find that "I'm" not alone in my opinion of the piece 'o crap.  And to a point you're right, it's not really difficult, just massively MORE a PITB than it was prior.

sinc

  • Guest
Re: Sharing partial MNS in 2007
« Reply #21 on: January 26, 2007, 02:18:21 PM »
"It's difficult for ANYONE to use this thing, except in a basic fashion."
Uh, no. No it isn't.  It is difficult for YOU.

If you really think that, then please write an article explaining how to use the CUI to setup customizations for a vertical app like Land Desktop.  Important parts are: a) use Enterprise CUIs for the company-standard part, so that average users cannot edit the company-wide customizations b) still allow the user to easily create and manage a Custom.cui as their personal Main CUI.  Note that the user should not run into ANY unresolved references, toolbar buttons that look like clouds, bogus menus appearing in the Land Desktop "Points" menu, etc.  And it must be easy to move those customizations to the next version of Autocad when it comes out.

If you can actually write an article explaining the above, then I will bow down and worship you.  Otherwise, I don't believe you.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2007, 02:20:02 PM by sinc »

CADaver

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Re: Sharing partial MNS in 2007
« Reply #22 on: January 26, 2007, 02:40:04 PM »
If you can actually write an article explaining the above, then I will bow down and worship you.  Otherwise, I don't believe you.
gee sinc, it "was" the guys first post, you coulda cut him some slack ...

...

... nah you're right, I guess not, me neither.

ronjonp

  • Needs a day job
  • Posts: 7529
Re: Sharing partial MNS in 2007
« Reply #23 on: January 26, 2007, 03:09:46 PM »
To share across a network without having to worry about users making changes to the CUI file.....make the file read only.

Am I missing something here?

Windows 11 x64 - AutoCAD /C3D 2023

Custom Build PC

CADaver

  • Guest
Re: Sharing partial MNS in 2007
« Reply #24 on: January 26, 2007, 03:35:20 PM »
To share across a network without having to worry about users making changes to the CUI file.....make the file read only.

Am I missing something here?
That's not the problem with CUI.  The current implementation of CUI is heavy-handed and eats a production seat during customization.

ronjonp

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Re: Sharing partial MNS in 2007
« Reply #25 on: January 26, 2007, 04:45:07 PM »
Cadaver,

What do you mean by "eats a production seat"?

Ron

Windows 11 x64 - AutoCAD /C3D 2023

Custom Build PC

CADaver

  • Guest
Re: Sharing partial MNS in 2007
« Reply #26 on: January 26, 2007, 05:30:59 PM »
Cadaver,

What do you mean by "eats a production seat"?

Ron
I have to be running AutoCAD.

dan19936

  • Guest
Re: Sharing partial MNS in 2007
« Reply #27 on: January 26, 2007, 05:57:47 PM »
I have to be running AutoCAD.

I'm impressed you can customize your setup without testing it on AutoCAD. I'm guaranteed to have a typo anytime I mess with anything.

CADaver

  • Guest
Re: Sharing partial MNS in 2007
« Reply #28 on: January 26, 2007, 08:09:48 PM »
I have to be running AutoCAD.

I'm impressed you can customize your setup without testing it on AutoCAD. I'm guaranteed to have a typo anytime I mess with anything.
In older versions I can do a ton of menu mods using Notepad editing the MNS during the day. Then after hours, compile the menu do the checks,  make a few repairs and the new changes are in place in a few minutes.  Now I have to eat a production seat to make the changes to a dummy CUI for testing so as not to screw up concurrent work, then after hours roll out the changes and check the production CUI for function.

sinc

  • Guest
Re: Sharing partial MNS in 2007
« Reply #29 on: January 26, 2007, 11:52:06 PM »
If you can actually write an article explaining the above, then I will bow down and worship you.  Otherwise, I don't believe you.
gee sinc, it "was" the guys first post, you coulda cut him some slack ...

...

... nah you're right, I guess not, me neither.

Yeah, I coulda cut some slack.  Guess I've spent so much time trying to debug this CUI that having someone say "It's simple" without providing any real help got my gumption up.  Still, if he could manage to put together an article explaining how to get everything to work right, he would elate a huge number of people.

When it comes to Land Desktop, Civil Design Companion, and Survey (the primary package we've been using up until recently), the closest I've come to getting everything working goes something like this:

Make a copy of CUSTOM.CUI, and call it "Company.CUI".  Place all custom commands and scripts in this CUI.  (In order to do this, set Company.CUI as your Main CUI in OPTIONS - then you can edit the CUI in the CUI editor.)  Make sure you also change the name of the customization group in the CUI editor - i.e., at the very top of the tree in the upper-left portion of the CUI editor, make sure you change "CUSTOM" to say "COMPANY".  Then add your custom commands to toolbars as desired.  You can also link in basic CUIs like ACMAP.CUI and EXPRESS.CUI if you want to add some of those commands to some custom toolbars.  Just keep in mind that this CUI should be considered a "Base" CUI, so it should have no Land Desktop, Civil Design, or Survey commands in it.

Create another copy of custom.CUI, called "CompanyLand.CUI" (remember to also change the name of the customization group in the CUI editor).  Make a copy of "Land.DLL", and call it "CompanyLand.DLL".  Set CompanyLand.CUI as the Main CUI in OPTIONS.  Make sure you change the name of the CUI group from "CUSTOM" to "COMPANYLAND".  Link in all of the following as Partial CUIs, in this order: LAND.CUI, ACMAP.CUI, ACETMAIN.CUI, CIVILDESIGN.CUI, SURVEY.CUI, Company.CUI.  It's a real pain linking in all these CUI files, because of the way the CUI editor works, but that's par for the course.  Now, in CompanyLand.CUI,  create all custom commands and toolbars that have anything to do with Land Desktop, Civil Design Companion, or Survey.

At this point, you should have a main CUI that works for everything except for creating custom toolbars that contain Map commands.  For some reason, all Map tool buttons turn into clouds when you add them to a new toolbar.  I think you can get around this if you can combine all the icons in "acmap.DLL" and "land.DLL" into a single file called "CompanyLand.DLL", but I'm not entirely sure how to do that.  I think I remember seeing something about it once, but I believe it involved a little utility someone wrote.  (And you can actually get around the icon problem by saving a copy of the icon to a BMP file, and then pointing your new toolbar button icon to the BMP file.  This is rather annoying, but it works.)  At this point, everything else seems to work (I think).

Here's where the real problems start.  Create a new CUI file, called "User.CUI", and set it as the Main CUI.  (Again, make sure to also change the name of the customization group in the CUI editor.)  Make another copy of "land.DLL", and call it "User.DLL".  Now set User.CUI as the Main CUI, and CompanyLand.DLL as the Enterprise CUI.  The user can now create new toolbars, but with the same issue as before (all Map toolbar icons will appear as clouds).  In addition, shortcut menus defined in User.CUI are ignored, so the user cannot customize those.  Also, if you go into the CUI and attempt to edit one of your workspaces, you will see that all menus show up as "Unresolved reference" in the upper-right quadrant of the CUI editor.  Attempting to use the Transfer tab to transfer in workspaces results in erratic results.

That's about the best I can manage.  At least it should be relatively easy to upgrade, though, since the Autodesk-provided CUI files are not edited, and can be simply replaced with the new ones when the new version comes out (excepting, of course, any changes Autodesk may have made, like in 2007 when they moved all the Layer Tools from ACETMAIN.CUI to ACMAP.CUI, forcing the user to re-create any custom toolbars that included Layer Tools).

Randomly, the "Recent Commands" menu may appear inside the Points menu at the top of the screen.  I don't know why.  I think it has something to do with shortcut menus getting mixed up with normal menus, but since the Land Desktop "Point" shortcut menu is not included in the CUI, it's difficult to tell what's going on.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2007, 11:55:34 PM by sinc »