Topic: AutoCAD flavor poll

[Dinosaur]

Kate - Cruel arn't they?

They just don't understand that you really don't need to spend multi thousands of dollars on a program.

I am amazed that LT users actually seem to be efficient with the limited tools they have at their disposal.  I tip my hat to those creative enough to make LT work for them.
Part of the problem understanding the use for LT is that as you start using the vertical applications you drift further from needing heavy customization and even the core AutoCAD commands.  Eventually even regular AutoCAD seems like a bit of comic relief when you can go an entire day without using a core command except perhaps zoom, save or plot.  I would likely be helpless anymore if I were restricted to LT and only a little better in vanilla AutoCAD with only a handful of routines to ease the pain after a year using only the Civil 3D toolbars, toolspace and the context menus.

[craigr]

Well, the good thing about me being stuck with LT is that I have never used the 'full' version. This way I don't know what I am missing.

It's tough to upgrade when it isn't your dime.

craigr

I guess this goes for my Boss also. He has never seen how the Full version would benefit us, so why spend the money on it?

craigr

[Greg B]

Kate - Cruel arn't they?

They just don't understand that you really don't need to spend multi thousands of dollars on a program.

I am amazed that LT users actually seem to be efficient with the limited tools they have at their disposal.  I tip my hat to those creative enough to make LT work for them.
Part of the problem understanding the use for LT is that as you start using the vertical applications you drift further from needing heavy customization and even the core AutoCAD commands.  Eventually even regular AutoCAD seems like a bit of comic relief when you can go an entire day without using a core command except perhaps zoom, save or plot.  I would likely be helpless anymore if I were restricted to LT and only a little better in vanilla AutoCAD with only a handful of routines to ease the pain after a year using only the Civil 3D toolbars, toolspace and the context menus.

Let me ask this...

Is Civil 3D a stand alone program?

[Dinosaur]

Let me ask this...

Is Civil 3D a stand alone program?

It is kind of a hybrid . . . it can be run as plain vanilla if you don't load all of the civil stuff on start-up; it can also be run as MAP 3D if the right menus are loaded and if you start it out of the box you have Civil 3D.  All of the commands are there, but many of them don't (or at least didn't prior to r2007) play nice with Civil 3D objects - hence the phrase "power exit."
An ideal Civil 3D drawing would be made up exclusively of these objects which are really only a visual expression of the model data rather than a collection of the usual drawing elements.  Two or more copies of the same object can exist and look nothing like any other depending on the style assigned to that particular copy.  Within the drawing they behave more like a complex block with several elements of different layers, colors and linetypes as defined in the style.  The labels even are part of the given expression rather than text elements that can be manipulated or edited.

[Greg B]

My questions more lies like this...

Can you buy Civil 3D, install it on a brand new computer with just an operating system and no other cad software on it, and start using the program?

No add-on's, no customization programs.

Just install the program, open it up and start drawing civil stuff?

[daron]

C3d, ADT, et al, minus Revit and maybe 1 or 2 other acquisitional tools are all "vertical products" to Autocad. IOW, you buy the Vertical App and you get Autocad as its core package. The way I've always seen it is like this: Autocad started out as an everything for everybody kind of package. Eventually, they realized that they could do better if they branched ACAD into different fields, specific to the task of that field. Autocad is in there, and you can use it the way it always was intended, but the VA's gives you more ability in your specific field. It's still Autocad, it just has more and yes, it costs more. I don't know how much. I haven't bought it or looked that up in a long time. No, it's not stand-alone, but it's not an add-on either.

[Dinosaur]

Yes . . . but only if you know how to use the program.  If I walked up with 10 years experience in vanilla AutoCAD or Land Desktop and no specific Civil 3D training, I could easily waste WEEKS getting nothing drawn that was "Civil 3D".  With even 3 days of decent training I could start using it as it is intended.
Daron, Civil 3D is very similar to Revit, right down to the toolspace interface and expression of the model by various styles.

[daron]

Oh. From your previous post, I gathered since it can be part of AutoCAD, that it was more similar to ADT in the VA respect. I'm not well versed in Revit, but it doesn't appear to really have ties to the Autocad core.

[Dinosaur]

There is a taste of both, but core AutoCAD command interaction with Civil 3D objects is very limited - even osnaps barely work if at all on some objects.  Element visibility is best controlled within the style rather than layer manipulation.  Anything that is created via normal AutoCAD methods reacts as expected, but a Civil 3D object will ususally "surprise" you with its interaction.

[Greg B]

Daron hit on the point I was going to make about cost.

It seems that for a few convienient features, you can get this program (I'd call it an Add-On cause you have AutoCAD with extra features).  You pay for autocad + you pay for the extra feature.

Hmm...I got to actually working and forgot where I was taking this though process...I'll figure it eventually.

[Dinosaur]

No, it is more like AutoCAD comes along for the ride.  I think most of the reason Civil 3D is struggling is Autodesk keeping it tied to the dwg format.  It began as catia software and was hammered into dwg compatibility after it was purchased.  This is far more than a few extra features coded into AutoCAD.
These C3D objects interact dynamically with each other and will instantly update all associated objects when one is modified.  I had to move the very first manhole in a sewer line.  All of the stationing, the existing ground profile for the affected pipe run, pipe lengths and slopes were affected.  When I finished physically moving the manhole, every element over the entire 5 sheets of plans was updated to the current data within the model.  If I get new survey data that changes the surface to a more accurate representation, the model updates the surface and any profile over the affected area and any object tied to it is instantly updated as well.

[Jeff_M]

It seems that for a few convienient features, you can get this program (I'd call it an Add-On cause you have AutoCAD with extra features).  You pay for autocad + you pay for the extra feature.

You are correct here. I can create the same EXACT LOOKING drawing using Datacad, Turbocad, Autocad, LDT, and C3D.

However, the "few convenient fetaures" enable me to create and, more importantly, edit that drawing/model in far less time. If my time was worth nothing then this difference wouldn't matter. But, last I checked, my charge out rate is rather high. Even when I was self-employed I enjoyed taking home a paycheck every now & then.

Here's some interesting stats (guess-timated, but deemed accurate) to complete a typical project.

When I was designing and drafting by hand, I needed myself & at least 2 technicians for a minimum of 6 weeks.

Then we were introduced to AutoCad, we were able to save about 3-5 days time.

Then we learned, or Autodesk actually gave us the tools, to program repetitive tasks and we were able to eliminate one of the techs.

Then DCA/Softdesk/Adcadd/LDT came along in it's various versions, eventually leading to the entire design/drafting team being just 1 person (me) needing just 3 weeks.

Now with C3D I'm confident that, once I master it's use, the total time will be reduced to 2 weeks, or less. Yes, it's that good.

Now there is no way that anyone can tell me that the $8000 price tag for C3D is not worth it. (2-3 weeks of my time vs 6 weeks of me & 2 other's time) The software has paid for itself in just 1 finished project! The remainder of the savings can now be placed in the PROFIT column.

[Greg B]

I understand your point Jeff, and here is where I'm coming from to hype up DataCAD.

The developers of DataCAD are creating new features that are making everything smarter, like revit or ADT, but not creating it as an "add-on" package that has it's own price tag.  It will be standard feature of DataCAD.

[Jeff_M]

That's fine, Greg, but will the price of DataCAD be going up to accomodate these new features? If not, how are they making a profit? If so, what about those users that don't need, or want, the new features.....why should they pay more for those?

It was exactly those questions (and others like them) that got AutoCAD to where it is today, IMHO.

[Draftek]

Don't you have to own all three properties before you can add a house using DataCAD?