Author Topic: Civil 3D - Use Vault for EVERYTHING or Just the Bare Basics  (Read 7880 times)

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MMccall

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Re: Civil 3D - Use Vault for EVERYTHING or Just the Bare Basics
« Reply #15 on: September 02, 2006, 11:27:05 PM »
Too harsh, perhaps.  Maybe I expect too much from a mature software company. This isn't their first attempt at writing software, not their first civil design package and not their first release of a it. Having the software parse through all the xlm's for every project is a bit short sighted and something they probably could have fixed. (like restricting it to just the current project)  File and data management should have been higher up on the development list.

There are many things C3d does very well and it's pretty amazing.

dbreigprobert

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Re: Civil 3D - Use Vault for EVERYTHING or Just the Bare Basics
« Reply #16 on: September 02, 2006, 11:45:54 PM »
I have yet to use vault in any way.

When we went to bootcamp this year, i got thrown on the sales track to fill a seat, so i didnt even see the technical presentations.  So I didnt use it then.

When Beth got sick and I had to do our road show, I blew off the vault parts since i had enough to worry about.

We have had a few people ask about Vault, and I usually take a good, hard look at why they think they need it, how they work now and what data they really need to share.

When it comes down to it, very few of the small to medium sized firms that I encounter really do much data sharing in Land Desktop.  

These are usually the big REAL REASONS:

1) The EG is in a survey base- so it needs to be sampled on all profiles
2) They separate alignments from profiles so that someone can be doing plan while other in profile

Here is why they think they need data sharing:
1) Because every drawing they currently have is associated with the LDT project even if it doesnt have data
2)They mistake XREF (pretty picture sharing) with DATA sharing (terrain definitions, points, alignments)  They think in order to see the alignmnet they need the alignment data, for example, when they could just XREF

How I handle the REAL REASONS
1) LandXML shuffle.  It isn't super tidy, but it works.
2) The reason they currently do this is because someone is manually drafting and manually (dtext) labeling pipes, or going through the cumbersome LDT vertical alignment tools.  That stuff flies in C3D and can usually (after a few projects and comfort increases) be eliminated all together.  Not to say tha a profile doesn't need to be "touched", but it isnt being constantly updated with the latest engineering whim

Other strategies:

I find that people are usually willing to sacrfice a little dynamic-ness for some cost savings.  Hmmm.... $60K plus in hardware upgrades, OR just wblock over some alignments every once in awhile.  No brainer.

Another thing that works also helps keep the sticky fingers of the EIT posse out of the precious "Final Drawings" is the idea of a redline scrap drawing.  Well managed, an engineer or designer can slop around with many different iterations of a design, then block or landxml over the final surface, etc to the clean drafting drawing.

I have a million ideas here because as I said, I am in Vault denial for the moment

As far as my own work, I find that my tolerance for drawing size ranges from about 10-20meg max. leaning towards the 10 meg mark.  I currently have a 120ish lot subdivision with a big ol' corridor, a few relatively large surfaces, several pipe networks, etc etc and it runs in the 10 meg range.  I separate out parcels since they usually just get in my way and i dont want them reacting to anything- so they get their own baseplan.  

I have an Ebase, a Parcel base and a Pbase.  That's it.  Sheets and layouts also on their own.  No viewports or layout tabs in any of my base plans.  The only data that is shared is a LandXML shuffle EG.

I also have another project- bigger- probably in the 200ish lot range with a corridor+more and it is about the same 10-12 meg

But the issue here is QUALITY drawing size vs. CRAPPY drawing size.

If I receive a project from a client as an LDT project- and they say- bring it forward and work your magic.

The first thing i look at is drawing size.  If this LDT drawing is more than a meg or two and they aren't mapping the grand canyon I look closer.  There are exceptions, but at this scale project the big culprits are usually things like aerial topo blocks that were never flattened, drawing errors, blocks that are in memory but not in use and have some blip or corruption or elevation to them, things like LDT TIN lines that are old, redundant or just not useful, etc.

If my drawing is large for no good reason before I start adding Civil 3D entities, things will get out of control fast.  A big reason why people feel they need Vault or some sort of whole hog project system i often because of things like "managing drawing size"

With all that said, there are certainly firms that really need robust data sharing, or really just want to use it for other reasons.  So Vault is a solution.

But I never would point people that way without a really hard look at HOW they really work and what we can do differently.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2006, 11:48:20 PM by dbreigprobert »

Dinosaur

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Re: Civil 3D - Use Vault for EVERYTHING or Just the Bare Basics
« Reply #17 on: September 03, 2006, 02:19:15 AM »

The ony things I really need to share in a project are the surfaces.  I also use the project functions to store the points and point groups.  Alignments could also have usefull to share I guess, but I never felt it necessary.  Without Vault in 2007 does one just manually save the various XML files manually and place them somewhere logical?  Do you make a seperate XML for each thing or just one for the entire project data?  I am still a bit skeptical about XML frankly after my first project fiasco and have only tried a couple limited XML transfers since.

dbreigprobert

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Re: Civil 3D - Use Vault for EVERYTHING or Just the Bare Basics
« Reply #18 on: September 03, 2006, 02:23:53 AM »
the quasi dynamic landxml shuffle only works for surfaces

how it works-

make a surface in your Ebase

landxml out just the surface

landxml in to the pbase

if the ebase surface changes, just export again OVERWRITING the original landxml surface file
rebuild surface in pbase.

just store it in a folder somewhere.  it behaves like an xref

done. 

surfaces maintain their association with the landxml file that created it.

nothing else to my knowledge works like that- once alginments are in, they are in, etc.

points- do you need them, or do you need to see them?  would an xref get you what you needed?

Dinosaur

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Re: Civil 3D - Use Vault for EVERYTHING or Just the Bare Basics
« Reply #19 on: September 03, 2006, 02:40:23 AM »
Ebase & Pbase - I am lost, what are these terms?

Points are always in a state of flux - very piecemeal in their collection and when we export for staking . . . you just don't want to know . . .   :-o  Let us just say any project at any given time may generate points to contribute to the project and to export for staking, all control points must be included or our surveyor . . . it is just not a pretty sight.

Jason Hickey

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Re: Civil 3D - Use Vault for EVERYTHING or Just the Bare Basics
« Reply #20 on: September 03, 2006, 12:11:14 PM »
See, this is where my mind diverges from Dana's in a way.    Of course, that's one of the reasons that we get along so famously.

I try not to let any customer or class escape my discussion regarding Vault.   As a matter of fact, one of my standard "marketing fluff" seminars (sorry folks, we're required to do them by the "Mothership") is "Project Management for Civil Engineers", and it's going to look strongly at Vault.

I use it a little for drawing file size management, but I also use it for something else - data redundancy.    Let's say that I use Dana's example of three drawings per project.    Parcels go into a parcels drawing, everything existing goes into an existing drawing, and everything proposed goes into a proposed drawing.     Now, I know we're all supposed to save early and save often, and we're supposes to Audit every so often to keep our data safe.   However, what happens if her proposed drawing crashes?   What if she doesn't have a backup on the server from last night?   That's a ton of work to have to go back and reproduce just because a drawing went wonky.    With Vault, I'd just go check out the latest version of that drawing and not have to worry about it, because the vault only moves a COPY OF THE DRAWING out to the working folder.    I've always got something as a backup.

Actually, the way I use Vault works much better for smaller offices than it does for larger offices.    Smaller offices (<15 or so, maybe more than that) don't necessarily have to worry about an entirely new dedicated server.   They CAN manage with the server that they've got.   Sure, a perfect world would see everyone running this on it's own box with Windows Server 2003 and SQL Server, but it can be run on a lesser piece of hardware.

To be perfectly honest, I feel as if I need to be pushing Vault RIGHT NOW, because I don't think it's going to go away.   It's going to be around for a while, and we have to get used to it pretty darn soon.   I'm not saying (by ANY stretch of the imagination) that there couldn't be a better option - certainly there could.   However, I am saying that I've been given a car to take to the race track, and I'm going to try my best to win with it  ;-)

dbreigprobert

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Re: Civil 3D - Use Vault for EVERYTHING or Just the Bare Basics
« Reply #21 on: September 03, 2006, 12:48:19 PM »
so let's say that data sharing wasnt an issue at all.

What does vault bring to the table above what i could do myself by making a copy of my drawing at the end of the day in a second backup directory?  or running a little macro that copies my drawings to that backup directory?

I'm not against vault. in fact, I am all for data sharing.

But I am a realist- sometimes people aren't ready for more than one paradigm shift at a time if it just isnt necessary.

My principal mission is to get people into civil 3d, learning it and using it. 

if whenever they call to say something like "I'm trying out Civil 3D 2007 and I'd like to have labels at different scales..." and I go on a Vault tangent that involves me sending them an invoice for $20-100K worth of services, and they hang up the phone thinking- "OK, I guess I have to take this back to LDT since that sounds like too much for me"  I'd get nowhere.

So- that is why the four of us make such a good posse.

James would say "Change the entire workflow"
Nick would say "Customize the heck out of it"
Jason would say "Adjust your approach and work with what tools we have"
Dana would say "Just add another label and get back to work"

So somehow, those 4 minds meet and the client gets the solution they really need :)


dbreigprobert

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Re: Civil 3D - Use Vault for EVERYTHING or Just the Bare Basics
« Reply #22 on: September 03, 2006, 12:50:29 PM »
Ebase & Pbase - I am lost, what are these terms?

Points are always in a state of flux - very piecemeal in their collection and when we export for staking . . . you just don't want to know . . .   :-o  Let us just say any project at any given time may generate points to contribute to the project and to export for staking, all control points must be included or our surveyor . . . it is just not a pretty sight.

Translation:  Dana speak for

EBase= Base plan containing my existing info
PBase= Base plan containing my proposed info

Dinosaur

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Re: Civil 3D - Use Vault for EVERYTHING or Just the Bare Basics
« Reply #23 on: September 03, 2006, 12:57:48 PM »
I admire the restraint you had by NOT adding any comments John Postlewait may have included! :-o ;-)

This is all great stuff from all of you . . . EXACTLY the type of input I was hoping to receive. :wink:

And thanks for the clarification on the terms . . . It was late and some of the brain circuits had fried already from some family issues.

Jason Hickey

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Re: Civil 3D - Use Vault for EVERYTHING or Just the Bare Basics
« Reply #24 on: September 03, 2006, 05:17:55 PM »
I admire the restraint you had by NOT adding any comments John Postlewait may have included! :-o ;-)

OK, you brought it out here.   Ladies and gentleman, you're now going to see the famous (or infamous) Postlewait impersonation, brought to you live for the first time on TheSwamp:

John will say "How the **** can I run it on **** Novell AND **** back it up every **** night?"

And now for a bit of legalese:

The preceeding impersonation was said in great jest with tongue planted firmly in cheek, and in no way reflects a bad opinion of John.   I told him a few days ago that I'd pick on him occasionally, and figure this is something good for him to come back to work and see, especially after a nice birthday weekend celebration    :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

dgreble

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Re: Civil 3D - Use Vault for EVERYTHING or Just the Bare Basics
« Reply #25 on: September 05, 2006, 10:33:37 PM »
Thanks to all for the wonderful input.  After taking a holiday weekend semi-off and having the pleasure of seeing the Royals taking 2 of 3 from the Sox I am back to the grind. 
If 2007 can be loaded without the vault does everything still work smooth or is it a xref nightmare?  I am trying to pin down my re-seller to help with the installation of vault and they are talking to me like I must be crazy.  I ask my reseller for literature on vault and they tell me that it doesn't really exist.  Training is in the future and it seems that using 3D is getting better.  Still using the LDT crutch for grading and finished surface creation and not into parcels yet (darn lots & blocks) but with 2007 hopefully that will change.  I hate to take two steps back with vault but hopefully it will get me three steps forward.  There is only one project with a super huge drawing file (18meg) with a huge eg (120 meg) and data shortcuts.  Future projects should be smoother, cleaner, faster.

Dinosaur

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Re: Civil 3D - Use Vault for EVERYTHING or Just the Bare Basics
« Reply #26 on: September 05, 2006, 11:07:26 PM »
You should not be tied into getting training from only your reseller.  If you are not satisfied with his answers now, it is doubtful if his training efforts will be any better for you than those feeble comments about vault.  Training can be contracted through whoever you choose and there are several sources for you to explore right here in TheSwamp.  You already know who I used.
I think all of the comments in this thread regarding implementing Vault are valid - Dana has offered up an method that will eliminate vault completely and it may well for work for you, provided you understand and follow the procedure absolutely.  The program is not updating your data for you and if you muff something . . . "oopsies" doesn't quite cover it.  I think Jason and James Wedding would both suggest embracing the beast and subduing it.  It will likely be around at least the next 2 releases anyway and that is a LONG duration for a PITA workaround.  I still prefer the very limited use of it that I outlined.  You know what your requirements are for sharing data and either one of these approaches or some twisted variant of one should work for you.  Keep the questions flowing and I think the solution can be nailed down for you, hopefully before you start gnawing at your leg and frothing at the mouth as has been reported in some extreme cases.

Jason Hickey

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Re: Civil 3D - Use Vault for EVERYTHING or Just the Bare Basics
« Reply #27 on: September 06, 2006, 10:47:51 AM »
DG -

If you're not getting good answers from your reseller, then look for someone else.   I will say, however, that they are right on one count - there really isn't much info on Vault for Civil 3D out there, other than what people like James have written.   Autodesk just doesn't address it (yet.)

Note that you are NOT tied to one reseller in your area for services or training.   Find someone who can work with you and get you set up the way you need to be.   Civil 3D and Vault aren't some out-of-the-box solutions for most people.   If you're interested, there are quite a few people in here who would be willing to talk to you, myself included.

jpostlewait

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Re: Civil 3D - Use Vault for EVERYTHING or Just the Bare Basics
« Reply #28 on: September 06, 2006, 08:27:58 PM »
I admire the restraint you had by NOT adding any comments John Postlewait may have included! :-o ;-)

OK, you brought it out here.   Ladies and gentleman, you're now going to see the famous (or infamous) Postlewait impersonation, brought to you live for the first time on TheSwamp:

John will say "How the **** can I run it on **** Novell AND **** back it up every **** night?"

And now for a bit of legalese:

The preceding impersonation was said in great jest with tongue planted firmly in cheek, and in no way reflects a bad opinion of John.   I told him a few days ago that I'd pick on him occasionally, and figure this is something good for him to come back to work and see, especially after a nice birthday weekend celebration    :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

LMAO Buddy.
This goes down with Vaughan Meador and JFK
C. Chase and Gerald R. Ford
Rich Little and nearly everyone.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

Dinosaur

  • Guest
Re: Civil 3D - Use Vault for EVERYTHING or Just the Bare Basics
« Reply #29 on: September 30, 2006, 09:07:56 PM »
Dan Philbrick has provided some important news for those of us who have not yet tried Civil 3D 2007 because they were reluctant to embrace Vault for data / project management.  Autodesk has announced that it will be issuing a new service pack that will restore 2006 style data shortcut functionality and eliminate the need to use vault or remembering to do the XML shuffle each time a drawing is loaded.