Topic: Commercial site process: corridors, feature lines, or both?

[dfarris75]

Can I have some input/advice on your commercial site process? Do you primarily use corridors, feature lines, or a hybrid for your grading?

[dfarris75]

And furthermore, what is your typical process when designing your site(s)?

Also, what music do you prefer to listen to while designing? What music do you find most enhances production?

[deegeecees]

... Also, what music do you prefer to listen to while designing? What music do you find most enhances production?

I find the delicate sounds of Slipknot are soothing, and add an ethereal effect to the office surroundings.

[mjfarrell]

D,

The process for me would be as follows:

Establish that your EG model is as complete as possible to adequately represent the site conditions.

I would use the site boundary to generate a polyline +/- 10' outside to establish limits of construction, and or the match point between current and proposed. Convert this into a Featureline and Use this to establish the very first element that you add to your Design surface.  Use Featureless to establish Building pads, they lend themselves to being used later to grade out into the parking areas. Note use of the corridor object within site design is practical where the drive lane will be a unique pavement construction, or there are on-site 'roads', otherwise I doubt it adds any benefit where the section is constant. The benefit is that the pads will link to the model, and changes in the pad elevation will be reflected in the surface.  Limit your use of points, unless a contourline refuses to go where you want it to, the slam a breakline or a point in there to have your way with the model.  Another possible exception would be a long segment of retaining wall as these are within the scope of the corridor subassembly functions.

Ponds would later be added as simple feature lines, and or built from grading features.  At this point there are no pond sizing tools so if you need to do that you will be booting up Land Desktop, Civil.

[dfarris75]

I've been contemplating using breakines to create my buildings, s/w's, and pavement and then going back and creating the curbing (perimeter and islands) using the corridor function.

On the other hand I also wondered if creating a corridor for the drivelanes and parking rows would be useful.

I don't know what would end up being less labor intensive/efficient.

[numa]

for small commercial sites (like gas stations) I create a nice existing surface. 

Make a copy of the existing grade.

Explode copy of existing surface into polylines (because when you explode them you can TRIM your new sloppy drawn contours into pretty polylines)

draw polylines  for proposed grade.  Leave polylines as your proposed grade.

If you have to run a bunch of profiles, it's nice to go ahead and make a proposed surface from the contours, but usually where the building is, and or whatever c3d goes berzerk and draws weird triangles.  just make that surface invisible, and you still have your nice looking contours you made by hand.

submit for approval.

For small sites there is just no replacement for sketching with polys.  Some folks print the existing grade, draw contours on paper, then scan, digitize, etc.

I know my method is old fashioned, but it works.

That being said, I do use the grading objects a lot.  I just don't leave them as objects, I vaporize them ASAP so they don't crash my drawing.

 And there are some excellent cool grading tools that can make some anoying things less annoying (I love use ing the grading objects to daylight my detention ponds, just fills me with joy) however, the objects created crash all the time, sometimes corrupting, so, it's cheaper just to export a surface out of the grading object, then delete the grading object once it's designed. 

***************

For larger commercial sites, I use corridor modeling to grade anything that has constant slopes, or anything that you need to draw a profile for anyways.  IE, long stretches of parking lot, swales, etc.  Then....

I fiddle with the surface for an hour or 2.

Get pissed off

copy corridor surface

explode copy of corridor surface

draw polylines

(see above)

[sinc]

I can honestly say that I've never needed to explode a C3D surface or hand-draw a contour, and the thought actually makes me kind of cringe...   

[mjfarrell]

for small commercial sites (like gas stations) I create a nice existing surface. 

Make a copy of the existing grade.

Explode copy of existing surface into polylines (because when you explode them you can TRIM your new sloppy drawn contours into pretty polylines)

draw polylines  for proposed grade.  Leave polylines as your proposed grade.

If you have to run a bunch of profiles, it's nice to go ahead and make a proposed surface from the contours, but usually where the building is, and or whatever c3d goes berzerk and draws weird triangles.  just make that surface invisible, and you still have your nice looking contours you made by hand.

submit for approval.

For small sites there is just no replacement for sketching with polys.  Some folks print the existing grade, draw contours on paper, then scan, digitize, etc.

I know my method is old fashioned, but it works.

That being said, I do use the grading objects a lot.  I just don't leave them as objects, I vaporize them ASAP so they don't crash my drawing.

 And there are some excellent cool grading tools that can make some anoying things less annoying (I love use ing the grading objects to daylight my detention ponds, just fills me with joy) however, the objects created crash all the time, sometimes corrupting, so, it's cheaper just to export a surface out of the grading object, then delete the grading object once it's designed. 

***************

For larger commercial sites, I use corridor modeling to grade anything that has constant slopes, or anything that you need to draw a profile for anyways.  IE, long stretches of parking lot, swales, etc.  Then....

I fiddle with the surface for an hour or 2.

Get pissed off

copy corridor surface

explode copy of corridor surface

draw polylines

(see above)

Numa,

With all respect, you and I need to have a long slow conversation about C3D.  This product will do what you need it to do, however you must get some training on it.  This thing is weird and convoluted and anit-intuitive.  However I promise that you, and your company can and will make huge gains in your ability to get good stuff from it; if and when you get some experience with it outside the canned materials in the web-casts, cad-camp, or others. 

let me share with you some emails from a client:

this first one was three days AFTER training:

Subject: Civil 3D's future @ stake in UEP program, This msg is confidential and I expect it to stay that way for now.
Date: Aug 1, 2007 6:34 AM
Attachments: unknown-1 KB unknown-2 KB

Lori,
I need some major help with getting these styles set and working properly, I seem to get stuck at every turn. There is a meeting today at 1:30 PM and I believe given the state of the styles that the decision will be made to go back to the old way. At last weeks meeting it was decided that Esteban and Phil would get involved, while Michael was still here, but that never happened. If we want to go back to the old way I think it will be a great loss. If I get some help and we can hurry and get these styles set up and working the way we need them to I believe we can continue as planned. I do think the nay-sayers, *** & *****, want to see it go back to the way we did it before. Maybe, if Michael's schedule allows, and your schedule allows, we can have him and you back to help see this thru.
Things I haven't actually make work:
        I have not brought in SS networks created in LDD to C3D. I am not sure how the styles, automatically get applied once they are in C3D.
        If it is deemed that we create SD's in LDD the above applies.
        etc. etc. 

This was weeks AFTER training:

Subject: Re: C3D Development
Date: Sep 23, 2007 6:59 PM

We conducted our own training with ResourceNet in India last week.  They have someone with a good handle on LDD and seemed to pick up on the techniques and procedures we outlined for them to prepare our 50% deliverables.   Right now I think we have C3D working for us.  No immediate need for additional training.   

 

NOTE: *** Company names withheld per terms of contract

[numa]

<quote>
With all respect, you and I need to have a long slow conversation about C3D.  This product will do what you need it to do, however you must get some training on it.
</quote>

With all due respect to you.

The question presented by the original poster, was essentially, how do the visitors to this board do commercial site grading.  I answered in a way that described how I do those. 

I will not respond to your comments, as I do not believe they enhance the original poster's question. 

[mjfarrell]

Hey, no problem; as I nearly attacked myself about this one. 

The process you suggest will not enhance the posters process or his ability to use C3D effectively.  The process that you have posted seems to defeat the use of 3d at all.  I can't in good conscious let them believe this is a path that should be taken.  That you resort to this, suggest that there is an underlying problem with how you employ the tools and why.  I am trying to assist you and the other user; however I was probably a little heavyhanded for that I apologize. 


Although you should note, the emails posted are from a company that went from no use of C3D, to being able to conduct their own training with the processes we developed before, during, and after the training was over.   

[t-bear]

 
No need to appologize Michael.  When you try to help someone obviously inexperienced with the program, it's not your fault if they are unable...or unwilling...to learn.  best to just move on......

Hey, no problem; as I nearly attacked myself about this one. 

The process you suggest will not enhance the posters process or his ability to use C3D effectively.  The process that you have posted seems to defeat the use of 3d at all.  I can't in good conscious let them believe this is a path that should be taken.  That you resort to this, suggest that there is an underlying problem with how you employ the tools and why.  I am trying to assist you and the other user; however I was probably a little heavyhanded for that I apologize. 


Although you should note, the emails posted are from a company that went from no use of C3D, to being able to conduct their own training with the processes we developed before, during, and after the training was over.   

[numa]

It's a poorly written, obfuscated, cumbersome, corporately made program designed to make autodesk as much $$$ as possible.

Not a religion.

Different strokes for different folks

Now onto other isues....

You all assume I don't know 'how' to make the magic of c3d work.  Just because I don't do my projects the way you all do should not earn me denigration and trampling.  You people are worse than the audiophiles arguing over the amount of $$ they can spend on their stereos.  There are a million different directions you all could have constructively taken my post, instead I get an offer for training, and a bunch of prima-dona chest thumping.  WTF? 


You all assume I haven't spent years with this thing

Oh yeah, most of you are already well-versed in my methods and opinions from another source.  Perhaps you should get both sides of a story prior to declaring me incompetant.

And it must be that I am 'faking' any knowledge

God, you know it must be that I don't know how to engineer a thing!  Jeez I'll bet that I would have to have another  engineer pick up all the slack from the things I can't figure out. 



NUMA - twit

[mjfarrell]

It's a poorly written, obfuscated, cumbersome, corporately made program ...

You all assume I haven't spent years with this thing

No argument from me here.


Some total of all the posts I have seen, it would seem that you have not had any formal training with Civil 3D.

Is that a true statement?  And if it isn't, what form did it take?


Your ability to engineer is not in question; I have assisted many in overcoming the above quoted obstacle.


For what it's worth, I know that it isn't a religion, being totally disconnected from Autodesk in the way that I am.

[numa]

nope no formal training. 

However, the issues that my company have, at the moment have NOTHING to do with C3d. The things that are wrong in here are all data management issues, and the interaction of personnel with that data.   Actually, things are working pretty well in here, as they relate to C3d.  And besides, Me and My boss are the only ones that do commercial site grading.  And, in order for my drawings to pass HIS approval (since he stamps them) the spot elevations must scale perfectly for the contour lines. And he expects to be able to instaneously just 'move' contours around in front of him. 

Since he will be the one to actually stake the site, he will want to drag and drop contours at times when I nor anyone else may not be around.

Hence, polylines work for me.

 I have a method that works well for this, and I trust my method more and am faster with it than using c3d feature lines etc.  Commercial sites that we do, are quite unique in that most of the architects we work with require drawings to be put in acad r14 version, they have to have spot elevations as pure text, etc.  My method of polyline grading is probably not for everyone, not everyone is this used to hand drawing the contours. 

The last site I did the architect did the site grading for the North half, I did the site grading for the South half, and it was a TINY TINY TINY site.  Polylines were perfectly suited because the portion I worked on had a large infiltration basin, a weir and a very large detention pond (downtown area tied to combined sewer).   It was neccesary to carefully stage everything for my discharge, and the stupid thing still had a 2 stage flow structure. and the site was very flat with only 3 feet of fall across it.  That's only 3 contours. 

Now sure, my ponds were between 1.5 and 4 feet deep, but even then, that's hardly any real gradient.  having a smooth way of emailing between the architect was needed, as my pond designs kept screwing up his finish floor and most times having a lot of civil 3d objects in a drawing that you must convert down every 10 minutes to collaborate with the arch would have added a bunch of headache I didn't need. 

Also, I don't use hand drawn contours in large residential stuff OTHER than where necessary due to a lack of adjoining data, which happens sometimes, and the best thing to do is fudge it at the very boundaries using arial topo or whatever. 

Sometimes it is necessary to add hand drawn proposed grade to satisfy a very specific backyard shape, or to direct water in a necessary way or whatever. 

Anyways, that's my viewpoint, and that's how I do things at the moment, if C3d improves the stability of some of the tools, I will use them more.  However, I have had pretty bad luck with using a lot of grading objects in one drawing, especially if I make a bunch of drag and drop edits, I am a bit gunshy of them at the moment.

The interesting thing about this thread is that it appears that everyone is having good luck with the objects in c3d2008 so I will make another run of using them the next time the opportunity arises.

[mjfarrell]

Might I suggest that in the real world a Spot elevation will need to be staked to control the grade and thus also the final contour that is drawn.  Your end user needs to stop adjusting the output and start adjusting the input.   The grades you place on your ploylines, 3d polylines, and features lines should be the controlling item NOT the contour.  So the real challenge is that you, and your primary user need to know how the tool works such that you can better manage the data going in and what you get out of it.  The thing is your site work could and should go much faster and be more productive should you choose to use the tools correctly.  Nothing about your site work or the final output to r14, or Etch-a-sketch has any bearing on your use of the tools or the results they produce.  It's a new tool and requires new thinking.


In my experience, the stability of the product goes way up, the better one understands how it works.  Granted there are times that it does fail, and thus we created a button menu here at the swamp to save you from this feature of C3D.  There are times I still fall back and try to use it 'like land desktop' and most of the time it reminds me I can't.
In short most if not all of your challenges with the product will go away, should you start to use it more effectively. 
I offer that should you get training your experiences will become more productive and profitable.  Just be careful of the source.