TheSwamp
Code Red => AutoLISP (Vanilla / Visual) => Topic started by: alanjt on May 11, 2011, 08:54:33 AM
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http://www.cadalyst.com/video (http://www.cadalyst.com/video)
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I'm experiencing déjà vu!
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I think it's neat that she's plugging LISP; thanks for sharing Alan. ;-)
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This will be great for n00bz intimidated by LISP, go girl.
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Now would be a good time to send Lynn emails asking when the VLIDE will be brought into the 21st Century ...
:| perhaps I am a little caustic ...
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Now would be a good time to send Lynn emails asking when the VLIDE will be brought into the 21st Century ...
:| perhaps I am a little caustic ...
I'm 100% with you on that. If they have Autodesk people still plugging it, it'd be nice to see a little development.
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Now would be a good time to send Lynn emails asking when the VLIDE will be brought into the 21st Century ...
:| perhaps I am a little caustic ...
I'm 100% with you on that. If they have Autodesk people still plugging it, it'd be nice to see a little development.
While they're at it... perhaps a little more API Feature exposure to Visual LISP too (i.e., Civil 3D's AEC* Objects). :WishfulThinking:
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This will be great for n00bz intimidated by LISP, go girl.
My thoughts as well.
A nice little intro.
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Who is Lynn Allen? Is she a member here? *clickty link clickty* whoa? this is recient (that's acad 11 or 12).
comments:
the ``guru'' label isnt appreciated (I laugh a little when someone says that they are a guru).
paren speach is a little wonky (I didnt follow and I still dont know why I need a open and close after my DEFUN).
isnt it underscore command: _zoom?
"command" statement was good (-i.e. passes control to AutoCAD).
the `nil' statement was a little lacking (I dont need to only know how to `hide the nils' but I need to know what they are).
Overall, good job. Keep 'em comming.
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Who is Lynn Allen? Is she a member here? *clickty link clickty* whoa? this is recient (that's acad 11 or 12).
comments:
the ``guru'' label isnt appreciated (I laugh a little when someone says that they are a guru).
paren speach is a little wonky (I didnt follow and I still dont know why I need a open and close after my DEFUN).
isnt it underscore command: _zoom?
"command" statement was good (-i.e. passes control to AutoCAD).
the `nil' statement was a little lacking (I dont need to only know how to `hide the nils' but I need to know what they are).
Overall, good job. Keep 'em comming.
Lynn Allen is a representative for Autodesk. She goes all over giving how-to and new add-on seminars, etc. I just though it was cool to see an Autodesk representative showing people that LISP is still useful, which makes me think Autodesk at least thinks about it from time to time....or maybe she just didn't have anything new to talk about for her weekly webcast.
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Who is Lynn Allen? Is she a member here? *clickty link clickty* whoa? this is recient (that's acad 11 or 12).
Lynn Allen is a representative for Autodesk.
I'm pretty sure he knows who she is. Who doesn't?? I think he was joking when he typed that.
....or maybe she just didn't have anything new to talk about for her weekly webcast.
*DING!**DING!**DING!**DING!* We have ourselves a winner!
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Who is Lynn Allen? Is she a member here? *clickty link clickty* whoa? this is recient (that's acad 11 or 12).
Lynn Allen is a representative for Autodesk.
I'm pretty sure he knows who she is. Who doesn't?? I think he was joking when he typed that.
Ya never know. He should have used the sarcasm brackets.
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Who is Lynn Allen? Is she a member here? *clickty link clickty* whoa? this is recient (that's acad 11 or 12).
Lynn Allen is a representative for Autodesk.
I'm pretty sure he knows who she is. Who doesn't?? I think he was joking when he typed that.
Ya never know. He should have used the sarcasm brackets.
He did.
His post had the word "Se7en" next to it.
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Who is Lynn Allen? Is she a member here? *clickty link clickty* whoa? this is recient (that's acad 11 or 12).
Lynn Allen is a representative for Autodesk.
I'm pretty sure he knows who she is. Who doesn't?? I think he was joking when he typed that.
Ya never know. He should have used the sarcasm brackets.
He did.
His post had the word "Se7en" next to it.
:-D touche
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No, i didnt know who she was.
The AutoLisp language will never be extended. She is probably a marketing rep so its her job to "sell" the ease of AutoCAD over the competition. But that doesnt take away the benifit of the vid for the new users though. It was a good find. I dont think there will be many more; i cant see how a video will address some of the more complicated "functions" though.
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Who is Lynn Allen? Is she a member here? *clickty link clickty* whoa? this is recient (that's acad 11 or 12).
Lynn Allen is a representative for Autodesk.
I'm pretty sure he knows who she is. Who doesn't?? I think he was joking when he typed that.
Ya never know. He should have used the sarcasm brackets.
He did.
His post had the word "Se7en" next to it.
*blink-blink* ...Im gonna kick you idiots.
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so....
how do we not get them there nils fellas?
Her official duties translate into Fluff and Puffery. ;-)
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I'll have to watch it later, if I can still mentally function (trying to configure both AutoPLANT and a new version of ProSteel - those who know will understand...).
LISP has got a few holes and is nowhere near as powerful or elegant as managed .NET or ObjectARX, but by the same token its ease of use makes it much better for those of us on the front lines. Upshot is, AutoDesk REALLY needs an internal LISP champion to handle this stuff. Probably not a professional programmer, either, as they will more than likely miss the benefits for the faults. While such a person may consider working with the bigger, badder tools "easy" they are fully dedicated to learning all the ins, outs, and gotchas needed to make something work. Down here at the pointy end of the stick, that level of specialization means NOT having all the peripheral knowledge needed for day-to-day operations: talking materials with the engineers, structural shapes and sizes with the civil folks, cable trays with the electrical designers, configuring all the applications needed for each, etc.
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Her official duties translate into Fluff and Puffery. ;-)
I always thought she was a fluffer. :evil:
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Who is Lynn Allen? Is she a member here? *clickty link clickty* whoa? this is recient (that's acad 11 or 12).
Lynn Allen is a representative for Autodesk.
I'm pretty sure he knows who she is. Who doesn't?? I think he was joking when he typed that.
Ya never know. He should have used the sarcasm brackets.
He did.
His post had the word "Se7en" next to it.
:-D touche
It's spelled with a d.
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It's spelled with a d.
lol :-D
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:-D
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Who is Lynn Allen? Is she a member here? *clickty link clickty* whoa? this is recient (that's acad 11 or 12).
Lynn Allen is a representative for Autodesk.
I'm pretty sure he knows who she is. Who doesn't?? I think he was joking when he typed that.
Ya never know. He should have used the sarcasm brackets.
He did.
His post had the word "Se7en" next to it.
:-D touche
It's spelled with a d.
:-D
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While I'm sure it may be spelled with a D; I'm almost certain that doesn't get rid of the NILS
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(http://www.theswamp.org/screens/mp/facepalm.gif)
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While I'm sure it may be spelled with a D; I'm almost certain that doesn't get rid of the NILS
nope. that may require penicillin.
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While I'm sure it may be spelled with a D; I'm almost certain that doesn't get rid of the NILS
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so..how do we not have nils?
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so..how do we not have nils?
Add (princ) as the last line of your code. I guess everyone thought you were joking.
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so..how do we not have nils?
Add (princ) as the last line of your code. I guess everyone thought you were joking.
I was; right along with the 'Spelled with a D' crowd. However the question about nils remained sincere.
I mean how many of you pranksters ever actually see me post any LISP code, ever? Show of hands...
Thanks for the answer!
Why would that have been so tough for her to include?
I't would seem to take the same amount of words to explain than to not.
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so..how do we not have nils?
Add (princ) as the last line of your code. I guess everyone thought you were joking.
I was; right along with the 'Spelled with a D' crowd. However the question about nils remained sincere.
I mean how many of you pranksters ever actually see me post any LISP code, ever? Show of hands...
Thanks for the answer!
Why would that have been so tough for her to include?
I't would seem to take the same amount of words to explain than to not.
Going along with your stated sincerity...
As Alan showed it only takes a moment to explain "include (princ)..." to no longer display (or in LISP-ese Return) nil at the command line.
However, a better understanding of LISP functions is necessary for someone to understand the purpose of a function returning anything at all (i.e., functions that return a selection set, or point list, or Object etc.).
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As in perhaps evaluating the drawings block table record and only giving one a set of blocks that were inserted at any scale other than (n). So that they could have that value set as desired to effect that particular change.
(Not that I know how to do any of the above)
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Lynn knows her target audience (the complete lisp / programmer n00b) very well. I believe the "omission" of a closing (princ) was no oversight, she's starting slow, providing the very minimum basic, essential information (hello, wrapping "erase last") in order not to overwhelm the student. She'll add layers of detail and complexity as she goes but start with the simplest base possible, and keep 'em coming back for more. I think she's right on the money for said audience.
(http://www.theswamp.org/screens/mp/wave.gif)
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sadly, her leaving that bit out, makes me already question the value of watching any more of her omissions
given that she presents the question and points out that the NIL is undesirable; it would be incumbent to answer/solve that issue right there
Introducing someone to a thing that can have error messages, and then teaching them to code somewhat clumsily (with errors remaining), isn't doing the n00b any favors. Remember this is only from my perspective as both a n00b and a teacher.
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sadly, her leaving that bit out, makes me already question the value of watching any more of her omissions
given that she presents the question and points out that the NIL is undesirable; it would be incumbent to answer/solve that issue right there
Introducing someone to a thing that can have error messages, and then teaching them to code somewhat clumsily (with errors remaining), isn't doing the n00b any favors. Remember this is only from my perspective as both a n00b and a teacher.
Meh. If you had genuine interest in learning LISP you would have availed yourself of the lessons provided by the many experts who regularly share their expertise at the swamp long ago -- your feigned interest is very entertaining . She's laying the information out in small bites at a speed and complexity level appropriate for users who probably never considered programming before because "it's so daunting". Additionally, she's also gauging whether their is sufficient interest to continuing with more "lessons" -- said initial lesson looks like a feeler to me. But thanks for your posts, the lessons about grace and generosity toward a fellow teacher are top notch.
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sadly, < .. >.
Meh.< .. >
(http://www.theswamp.org/screens/mp/agreement.png)
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Who is Lynn Allen? Is she a member here? < ..>
Couldn't help myself :) (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Who+is+Lynn+Allen)
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I completely agree with the sentiment regarding gauging the programming level of the audience - I struggled with a similar issue when trying to write a few tutorials for my site, which many times resulted in tutorials which were either miles too long or tried to include too much to cover all the bases. There is a very fine balance between holding the interest of the audience whilst at the same time including all the information you want to cover without completely confusing the hell of them.
For me, the video tutorial seemed a little slow - even for a complete beginner, but that might just be because I prefer to read information than watch it.
Lee
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This topic includes some culture I don't know?It's a little difficult for me.
I have read Lynn Allen's book <Autocad Professional Tips and Techniques>
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I'll tell you what it really looked like. It looked like she forgot to add that required PRINC to her little bit of code. And then when the command line returned NIL she remembered that she forgot. It has happened to myself when preparing a video tutorial. I typically then simply record the thing over and include the bit I left out.
I'm all about giving her the benefit of the doubt on it. Given that that particular piece of code is so fundamental and her lesson was supposed to be basic, I can't see any value in leaving it out, while at the same time saying it's a bad thing.
I think the reason I've not learned any lisp todate could be directly tied to similar 'lessons' I've been exposed to over the years that leave stuff out. Sadly inclomplete lesssons just don't seem to work for me. And this goes all the way back to a class I had in 1989 at an autodesk vendor in Portland, OR. When a lesson produces more errors than insight, I don't see that being an effective one.
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(http://i53.tinypic.com/i1fprc.jpg)
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:lmao:
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Just thought I'd mention that she released a 'part 2' to her Enter the World of AutoLISP.
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in b4 the hate
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There are 10 kinds of people in the world. Those who speak binary, and those who don't.
Lee, let me take this chance to tell you I appreciate your tutorials at your site, AND concur with your assessment of the difficulties inherent in "teaching" lisp.
I must be lazy, but to (princ) or (NOT (princ)), was never an issue here.
Confusticate and bebother the nils, next command wipes out that line anyway.
[ invalid syntax above - DO NOT COPY & PASTE ]
:pissed:
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It would be great if a few guys from here would make a tutorial explaining the VLIDE interface. Just watching over a virtual shoulder would explain so much and get some people a good jumpstart it would seem.
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on the Vlide interface, I am most happy to say I have my old autocad running quite nicely under Wine on Maverick Meerkat. but the Vlide interface has some bug. I have to close Vlisp to get autocad back, rather than being able to tweak and test immediately.
but maybe it will sharpen my skills, having a handicap.
:ugly:
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Suggestion: Why don't you guys learn a Text Editor (instead of relying on the VLIDE); There are plenty to choose from (not so many Cross platform but there are some).
The reason I say that is because the VLIDE does not have a good editor (Its basically Windows Notepad with indents and colors). A good text editor is valuable beyond measure and will serve you very well.
I am sure you have seen me talk about the editor I use (Vim) before but have also heard of the steep learning curve...if you wanted to try out one of the two Cross platform "power" editors (Vim and Emacs) you can try Cream Vim--which is the Vim editor that replaces the "normal mode" (akin to paper space in AutoCAD sorta) with scripts--with a very small learning curve. Cream isnt Vim per'se (all the scripts in the world cant replace the usefullness of `normal mode') but it is a good start.
But anyways, im sure several other users will attest to the value of learning a good Text editor. I know several users use Ultraedit (I do not think it is Cross Platform though) and some use Notepad++ (I do not think that one is Cross Platform either though).
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Textpad also, has syntax files for color display of autolisp.
http://www.textpad.com/add-ons/syna2g.html (http://www.textpad.com/add-ons/syna2g.html)
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Suggestion: Why don't you guys learn a Text Editor (instead of relying on the VLIDE); There are plenty to choose from (not so many Cross platform but there are some).
The reason I say that is because the VLIDE does not have a good editor (Its basically Windows Notepad with indents and colors). A good text editor is valuable beyond measure and will serve you very well.
< ... >
You got one with integrated debugging capability and dynamic help , etc ...
I personally use UltraEditStudio for stuff crafted out of AutoCAD ... I'd use it more except for the lack of integration.
... but we've been having this discussion for at least 15 years :)
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help-yes.
debugging-besides my brain, no.
etc-some, not all.
...but then I don't use "my" editor for just autolisp.
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notepad++ has LISP in it's languages. I don't do LISP enough to be picky, and don't write large enough or intricate enough routines that it matters much to me, but it helps me remember to close my () which is all I really wanted.
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Lee, let me take this chance to tell you I appreciate your tutorials at your site, AND concur with your assessment of the difficulties inherent in "teaching" lisp.
Thanks curmudgeon :-)
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many thanks for the continuing thread - NOTEPAD++ RUNS NICELY UNDER WINE
and is therefore cross platform at least in theory. I had forgotten. I will install and test today.
confession:
I have not mastered all the commands yet, no surprise, but I actually use the Vlisp help file.
:-P
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I actually use the Vlisp help file.
No shame in that. If the help file wasn't there, I'd be completely lost. It's a pain remembering all that random syntax.
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I actually use the Vlisp help file.
No shame in that. If the help file wasn't there, I'd be completely lost. It's a pain remembering all that random syntax.
Me too - there's always a function that you don't use too regularly that requires looking up the syntax.
With all the talk about Editors in this thread, I still hold that the VLIDE is by far the best editor for AutoLISP - its got all the syntax highlighting, parenthesis matching, indentation and word completion but also has debugging facilities and demand-loading and a direct link to the help documentation - all of which makes everything much quicker.
Notepad++ is also a great free editor, I use it for writing the code for my site. I would note that although it has LISP as one of its supported languages, this is Common LISP and hence won't highlight those functions specific to AutoLISP. Of course, that doesn't stop you adding the AutoLISP syntax to the language file...
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Notepad++ is also a great free editor, I use it for writing the code for my site. I would note that although it has LISP as one of its supported languages, this is Common LISP and hence won't highlight those functions specific to AutoLISP. Of course, that doesn't stop you adding the AutoLISP syntax to the language file...
HTML/PHP/CSS is actually what got me started loving Notepadd++ :)
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ultra edit > everything else
of course, productivity and writing pleasure is not everything
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HTML/PHP/CSS is actually what got me started loving Notepadd++
I have not done enough to have a firm opinion on HTML/PHP/CSS, but if you get a minute, you might also check out Kompozer.
I stuttered a bit installing Notepad++ on Linux, because you don't have to install it. One of those old fashioned Windows programs where you just execute the EXE file. Too simple for my old gray cells.
I LOVE THE WAY IT COLLAPSES NESTED STATEMENTS.
that is one thing Vlisp never did.
onward. someone drink a beer for me. 8-)
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Of course, that doesn't stop you adding the AutoLISP syntax to the language file...
give me a rain check on that one. I'll be back.
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`wine' does in no way make "it" cross platform...in any of the known universes.
The V.L.I.D.E. "has an editor" not "is an editor" - Visual Lisp Integrated Development Environment.
This conversation is splitting in two (we are talking two different languages/conversations here).
"syntax highlighting", "parenthesis matching", and "indentation" is the extent of the feature list for the editor in the VLIDE. A real text editor is so much more but the amount of `features' isn't the point; usefulness is. If you feel that `syntax highlighting', `paren match', and `indenting' along with the IDE-debugging features are useful enough for how you write your lisp programs then so be it, but please don't fool yourself into thinking that is what or how you use a text editor. An IDE is something entirely different than a text editor. You need to choose the tool best suited for how *you* work (if an IDE is good enough for you; good. I'm glad for you...I'm sorry, but I cant make myself care any more than that about how you *want* to work--I can only make suggestions if i feel they would be of any use).
To give you an example of what I'm talking about, I don't consider the debugging feature(s) as important as "navigation"; I spend far too much time reviewing, looking at, studding code. That is why Vim has a `normal' mode. As a `nav' example, I can jump back and forth to and from functions in this or that, or other files or directories without having to actually do any "opening or navigating files or folders" (I can jump around to and from functions like I can navigate the internet--clicking links so to speak--Vim can just know where to find a function and open the file for me to that location when issue a command). The things I do are worlds apart from what [you] do in the VLIDE because i work or do things in a different way.
Now, to address the second conversation:
If you ask any Vim user what kind of `features' Vim has they will laugh at you. However, I can try to start the `feature discussion' by saying: Vim has approximately 3609 features, at the time of writing this, which one would you like to talk about or compare?
EDIt: did a spell check.
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EDIt: did a spell check.
ok who is this, really
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EDIt: did a spell check.
ok who is this, really
It's definitely not N9ne.
Se7en 8ight him.
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EDIt: did a spell check.
ok who is this, really
It's definitely not N9ne.
Se7en 8ight him.
And 6ix is too scared.
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EDIt: did a spell check.
ok who is this, really
It's definitely not N9ne.
Se7en 8ight him.
And 6ix is too scared.
I can play Tetris in Vim. Now you guys need to ask yourselves: "if he has a text editor that can do that, what features does his editor have that could do harm to my PC if he so wishes or if i overstep?".
:D
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I can play Tetris in Vim.
and we all know what a boon to productivity that is (http://www.theswamp.org/screens/mp/poke.gif)
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EDIt: did a spell check.
ok who is this, really
It's definitely not N9ne.
Se7en 8ight him.
And 6ix is too scared.
I can play Tetris in Vim. Now you guys need to ask yourselves: "if he has a text editor that can do that, what features does his editor have that could do harm to my PC if he so wishes or if i overstep?".
:D
Does it help you build choppers?
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Lessons from Grandpa; Lesson 1*:
My grandfather walked into a tire store and said to the salesman:
"I want four new tires."
SG: "Sure, lets go outside and see what's what."
...
SG: "sir, you dont need four new tires."
Grandpa: *opens trunk and pulls out a screwdriver* *pops a tire*
SG: "What dahell are you doing!"
G: "I said `WANT' not `need'."
I can play Tetris in Vim.
and we all know what a boon to productivity that is (http://www.theswamp.org/screens/mp/poke.gif)
I said "can" not "do".
* lessons not actually in any order.
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Does it help you build choppers?
*sigh* Oh, I hope you catch on fire.
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Does it help you build choppers?
*sigh* Oh, I hope you catch on fire.
*applauds* You win the 5th grade spelling Bee!
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:-D
"When you find yourself in a hole stop digging". - Will Rogers
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:-D
"When you find yourself in a hole stop digging". - Will Rogers
All do respect to Mr Rogers; very eloquent BTW but IMO Poe ("The Raven") was more poignant--and relivant-.
...bunch of dumb birds.
*SQUAaaak* "Nevermore"
*croooaak* "VLIDE"
At any rate, thanx for the check. Appreciated.
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Thanks for the explanation though. I really don't understand the VLIDE terribly much, nor was I very aware of the purpose/scope of VIM.
Mainly because I'm a coding neanderthal stamping his hand on the cave wall, making pictures with his feces.
Oh, how far I've come.
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Mainly because I'm a coding neanderthal stamping his hand on the cave wall, making pictures with his feces.
Oh, how far I've come.
Moved up to a poop brush.
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Mainly because I'm a coding neanderthal stamping his hand on the cave wall, making pictures with his feces.
Oh, how far I've come.
Moved up to a poop brush.
Oh no. I was describing my CURRENT skill level. You don't -want- to know what I moved to that level from.
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I can relate - using the hands works better than using the forehead. :-D
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Mainly because I'm a coding neanderthal stamping his hand on the cave wall, making pictures with his feces.
Oh, how far I've come.
Moved up to a poop brush.
Oh no. I was describing my CURRENT skill level. You don't -want- to know what I moved to that level from.
(http://www.theswamp.org/lilly_pond/alanjt/eww.gif)
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Se7en - thanks. I looked at the Vim web site, and I intend to give it my best when I get a few other "projects" under control.
Programming is a small percentage of my life, and it comes in fits, as my lovely wife allows.
Deep into that darkness peering, long I stood there wondering, fearing,
Doubting, dreaming dreams no mortal ever dared to dream before;
Poe is a favourite here too.
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No problem.
`Other friends have flown before - On the morrow he will leave me, as my hopes have flown before.'
Unless you have *time* to devote to learning Vim (finishing the tutorial, reading the docs, etc.), dont. You will only fail. Search the internet for "Cream Vim" and try it instead (if using Ubuntu use the package manager -- or whatever its called-) it will make the interface more like other editors.
However, I wish you all the luck if you decide to dive into Vim (As far as computers are concerned, learning Vim was one of the best things ive ever done). I will be here if you need any help.
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^^ MEH! Professors and their odd particularities and their odd taste for strange things. :| :-D
Back to the topic at hand. **slightly related**
I just watched her video Lisp Part II and realize that those short lisp macroish lisp routines I still use today after all these years.
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I know just a little lisp but enough to know what nil is but if I did not,
those videos would leave wondering what are nils, why are nils are bad and why do they have them if you just want to get rid of them.
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yeah, i was thinking the same thing Jeff (back on page one when she mentioned them in vid one). The videos are good to get new people over the hump of "where do i begin" but very soon after these short intro's they need to get their hands on a good book.
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The attachment is what I thought she was most known for
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She posted part 3 today.
@Jeff H: I get a laugh every time I see your avatar.
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I know just a little lisp but enough to know what nil is but if I did not,
those videos would leave wondering what are nils, why are nils are bad and why do they have them if you just want to get rid of them.
Interesting...I posed these questions, and was thrown to the pack.....
And yet here you are validating my position.
As I said she should have covered it since she brought it up.
I guess she is just a LISP Tease.
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She has not shown us the most beautiful LISPs I've ever seen, that's for sure. ;-)