TheSwamp
CAD Forums => Vertically Challenged => Architecturally Speaking => Topic started by: deegeecees on August 21, 2007, 10:02:06 PM
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Story:
I have a friend who is buying a plot of land in Jamaiica, and I'd like to help him out as much as I possibly can here. To get right down to it, here's the spec's as I know them:
160'x90' plot along beach front in Negril
Want's to (of course) build towards 150mph winds
Looking for some realtime help here from anyone interested, PM me if you are seriously interested.
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<Bump>
You'll get a free place to stay when visiting Negril...
I'm not real familiar with Archy stuff, and have little Civil exp. so I'm just looking for some pointers as to how to proceed before design.
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<Bump>
You'll get a free place to stay when visiting Negril...
I'm not real familiar with Archy stuff, and have little Civil exp. so I'm just looking for some pointers as to how to proceed before design.
I would love to help out but have no experience with hurricane type specs.
Keeeiiiiithhhh, oh Keeeiiiittttthhhh!
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I was thinking the same thing...
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First, he need to get what are the code requirements to build in that place if any.
- Architectural stamp?
- Structural stamp?
- Are you going to use the US building code standards?
Etc. etc...
[hth]
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I've seen some construction projects going on in Jamaica. I'm thinking codes will be........ open for interpretation. :-)
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I've seen some construction projects going on in Jamaica. I'm thinking codes will be........ open for interpretation. :-)
I was thinking the same, but I'm sure he doesn't want his place to be one of those you see saw on the weather channel this past week ;)
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Actually Negril wasn't hit that bad.
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The most stringent code in the nation is the Florida Building Code, especially with hurricane resistance. I would be willing to offer any direction.
I would suspect that Jamaica doesn't have a very well defined building plan, but I could be wrong.
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Got some building codes and such, going to go through them in a meeting tonight with the Client, sort through the codes. Title Of Standards such as "Standard Specification for Ketchup JS: 88 (revision)" makes me a little apprehensive as to what I'm getting into here.
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Thanks Keith, was posting while you were. I'll see what their documents contain tonight, and based on what we find, might just use the FBC as a model.
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One good thing about FBC, it exceeds IBC, and it is available online and searchable. The problem is that the FBC, just like IBC, it has a seperate residential section that is used in conjunction with the main body of code. i.e. the FBC governs where FRC does not specifically address an issue. Much like IBC governs where IRC is not specific.
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Keith,
Is the FRC like the IRC in that it is prescriptive and doesn't require engineering?
I'm using the IBC/ASCE7 for wind design and it's pretty "Rocket Science". I trust the FBC/FRC is more straightforward.
Bob
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Bob, the way Florida works is kind of funny .. the code spells out specifically the requirements to meet the building code .. i.e. nailing schedules, lumber sizes, specifications, spanning tables, etc ... but other portions of the code specifically require that an engineer or architect place a raised seal on all plans for construction. More and more though the FBC and FRC have been moving to a reference code, meaning that instead of telling you that you must do "this" and "this", it tells you that you must do "this, according to <insert other reference material here>" So for example, in the roofing section, while it does prescribe some things, it also states that the roofing must comply with NRCA ...
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Thanks Keith, exactly the kind of thing I was needing, just a heads-up or two. I normally wouldn't touch anything like this, but it's for a VERY influential friend in the music biz.
<hint of sarcasm> Looking forward to it. </hint of sarcasm>
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Someone we should know? Does he want to hire a good contractor to go to Jamaica to build it? I just happen to know someone who could do that ...
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Something to know about....
What type of construction this is going to be?
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Something to know about....
What type of construction this is going to be?
Residential two flat w/separate occupancies. (Don't know the technical jargon)
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Something to know about....
What type of construction this is going to be?
Residential two flat w/separate occupancies. (Don't know the technical jargon)
And the building system?
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It would be helpful to know what kind of construction it will be, however, I am familiar with most types of construction techniques and materials.
I have designed for cmu, solid concrete, icf, wood frame, post and beam, log, metal framing, steel and combinations of them all.
Seperate occupancies are not an issue, we would just need to utilize UL specs for separation (if there is no difference in occupancy type) If there is a difference in occupancy types, there are a few other considerations.
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It would be helpful to know what kind of construction it will be, however,
better wording use it above.... ^^
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We will be going over the construction details tonight, we hadn't discussed building material yet, just occupancy type. The client has recently retired from Heavy Equipment Operator, (300 ft tower cranes), and has built most of the larger buildings here in downtown chicago, so I am relying on his expertise as well for guidance in design.
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The residential that I saw in Jamaica was very similar to Florida. Block/concrete Main level walls with wood roof.
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We got a presentation by someone from Redi-Rock (http://www.redi-rock.com/) retaining wall blocks a while back... I say someone partners up with me and invests in building Redi-Rock housing ;) it's obviously easy to ship and assemble, just requires a bobcat track-hoe for lifting and placing the blocks. Maybe on a larger scale a better sized piece of equipment for it, but we can start small. Add some mortar to stop the draft, and we got ourselves a fine piece of archaic engineering!
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I like the idea Josh, but since I have access to cheap ISO containers, I'm going to show the client something along the lines of:
These... (http://www.fabprefab.com/fabfiles/containerbayhome.htm)
And this... (http://www.architectureandhygiene.com/99KHouse/99k_main.html)
And this. (http://www.architectureandhygiene.com/12conHouse/12con_03.html)
But, haven't ruled out other types of "LEGO" systems. I'll be mention Redi-Rock as well.
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*^^^*
I am happy that I will be doing Architecture for only 5-8 years more.... with all of that prefab stuff.... and legoland pseudo architecture among many other things - it will make and or making this profession extint.... :)
We had the opportunity to build a cabana in Colorado in a 28 acres land.... the client want it to bring/built from a prefab-house - but glad that they change their mind and it is going to be a custom house instead....
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I'm pretty impressed with that last link you showed.
I think someone linked to this new wave of construction a while back and most of the ones I saw were pretty laughable and more like someone putting windows in the side of a shoebox and calling it home.
Some of those were somewhat impressive. Can't say I'd feel very "homey" in them, but I think it'd be pretty cool office buildings for a structural engineering firm :p
BTW, Redi-rock is a retaining wall structure so something like that isn't exactly made for housing... those blocks would be battered inward for one. Although that could be a benefit if sold properly ;)
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Luis,
I've discovered the real reason architecture is a dying profession: we're on the wrong side of the money line! The contractor waits silently for the owner to get financing while said owner begrudgingly pays us out of his / her own pocket. Furthermore, people don't want to pay for ideas. They'll gladly pay for construction: they can see it, touch it, smell it, taste it . . ..
So called "Design Build" firms have figured out that than can "hide" design fees in the construction costs: less soft costs out of the owners pocket. We actually have potential clients putting their contractors in charge of us! We won't touch theses projects. I try to explain that the contractor, by Florida Law, has NO fiduciary responsibility to protect said owners interest, and that is exactly why you hire an architect first (because we are in fact held responsible, by law, to protect our clients best interst).
I'm out as well, in hopefully 5 years (or less!). I just want to buy and sell dirt . . ..
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... I just want to buy and sell dirt . . ..
I am starting that as we speak, already have one property, have an offer on another, have eyes on at least 4 others, and have been contemplating placing an offer on at least 3 others. Soon, I will have a slum empire BUWAHAHAHAHAHAHA
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Luis,
I've discovered the real reason architecture is a dying profession: we're on the wrong side of the money line! The contractor waits silently for the owner to get financing while said owner begrudgingly pays us out of his / her own pocket. Furthermore, people don't want to pay for ideas. They'll gladly pay for construction: they can see it, touch it, smell it, taste it . . ..
So called "Design Build" firms have figured out that than can "hide" design fees in the construction costs: less soft costs out of the owners pocket. We actually have potential clients putting their contractors in charge of us! We won't touch theses projects. I try to explain that the contractor, by Florida Law, has NO fiduciary responsibility to protect said owners interest, and that is exactly why you hire an architect first (because we are in fact held responsible, by law, to protect our clients best interst).
I'm out as well, in hopefully 5 years (or less!). I just want to buy and sell dirt . . ..
Yes... I knew and know about it.... Sadly but true.....
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... I just want to buy and sell dirt . . ..
I am starting that as we speak, already have one property, have an offer on another, have eyes on at least 4 others, and have been contemplating placing an offer on at least 3 others. Soon, I will have a slum empire BUWAHAHAHAHAHAHA
I seriously wish you all the luck - :)
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Thanks Luis
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How do you "do" the engineering on those shipping containers. The last time I researched those things, they are pretty much performance built based on the testing of prototypes. We know they're strong 'cuz we see them stacked way high on ships exposed to ocean storms. But how do you convince a building department.
I once had a "niche" market providing designs for standardized peaked roofs to make these things look presentable, and also had some package details for window and door openings with flashings and all. But the owner had to get permits. They were never able to get permits and my niche market tanked.
Bob
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Bob, the engineering on steel is sound, you just have to calculate it.
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Bob, the engineering on steel is sound, you just have to calculate it.
I actually sent some of those links on to the bosses, and think I'll bring it up with them to see what they think of the idea. I think there could be potential, but would have to be examined by someone more engineeringly gifted than me. I am thinking of it as being used for the incidental office space for a lot of commercial projects we do for machine shops, warehouses, and random other manufacturing facilities that can have 10ksq ft+ of work area, then 5-10% of that have to have a wood or metal studded office area, sometimes two stories, within the metal building shell. This could be an economical solution for some of our clients who want it cheap, long-lasting, and done right, and don't give two hoots if it's pretty or not.
The hurdle I see is getting a contractor to welcome the idea of working with the stuff, and striking up some economical supply connections, as well as overcoming the initial engineering hurdle.
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Keith/Josh
What killed the engineering for me on these was the lateral. The ones I looked at had good columns at the corners but relied on that heavy gage corrugated siding for lateral restraint, and heavy gage corrugated siding just ain't in the code for shearwalls. Also, as I recall, the corrugated sidewalls also have to provide for vertical shear in the vertical bending of the side walls from gravity loads. I guess if that material was in the Steel Deck Design Manual it would work.
How do you do it?
Bob
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Keith/Josh
What killed the engineering for me on these was the lateral. The ones I looked at had good columns at the corners but relied on that heavy gage corrugated siding for lateral restraint, and heavy gage corrugated siding just ain't in the code for shearwalls. Also, as I recall, the corrugated sidewalls also have to provide for vertical shear in the vertical bending of the side walls from gravity loads. I guess if that material was in the Steel Deck Design Manual it would work.
How do you do it?
Bob
Un/Fortunately for me I'm simply an aspiring designer in a CAD Tech's shoes, and this stuff is beyond me. If the boss man has any interesting input on the nature of them, I'll pass on his opinion. I'm probably going to get a reply something to the effect of "if it ain't broke don't fix it" as well as something about not worth learning something new, while stating something uplifting to me about having a good idea and that it's good to keep an eye out for trends and changes.
I think he musta read a self-help book on managing a while back and memorized it well.
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*^^^*
I am happy that I will be doing Architecture for only 5-8 years more.... with all of that prefab stuff.... and legoland pseudo architecture among many other things - it will make and or making this profession extint.... :)
We had the opportunity to build a cabana in Colorado in a 28 acres land.... the client want it to bring/built from a prefab-house - but glad that they change their mind and it is going to be a custom house instead....
We haven't ruled anything out yet Luis, I was impressed with these Container Homes as Josh was. I'd use these as examples of what could be done. I just don't know the budget as of yet. For all I know the thing might be made out of sticks and leaves.
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BTW, Redi-rock is a retaining wall structure so something like that isn't exactly made for housing... those blocks would be battered inward for one. Although that could be a benefit if sold properly ;)
Ooops. Hadn't researched that one yet.
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How do you "do" the engineering on those shipping containers. The last time I researched those things, they are pretty much performance built based on the testing of prototypes. We know they're strong 'cuz we see them stacked way high on ships exposed to ocean storms. But how do you convince a building department.
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This was built to NON residential specs, applying the magic of steel reinforcement.
Frankfort, Illinois Pic1 (http://www.theswamp.org/screens/index.php?dir=DGCS/&file=MVC-012S.JPG)
Frankfort, Illinois Pic2 (http://www.theswamp.org/screens/index.php?dir=DGCS/&file=Frankfort%20%281%29.JPG)
The centroid of these things lies in the casters, if you leave all outer structural members in place, and brace where caster meets crossmember, you can design a stacked element.
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How do you "do" the engineering on those shipping containers. The last time I researched those things, they are pretty much performance built based on the testing of prototypes. We know they're strong 'cuz we see them stacked way high on ships exposed to ocean storms. But how do you convince a building department.
...
This was built to NON residential specs, applying the magic of steel reinforcement.
Frankfort, Illinois Pic1 (http://www.theswamp.org/screens/index.php?dir=DGCS/&file=MVC-012S.JPG)
Frankfort, Illinois Pic2 (http://www.theswamp.org/screens/index.php?dir=DGCS/&file=Frankfort%20%281%29.JPG)
The centroid of these things lies in the casters, if you leave all outer structural members in place, and brace where caster meets crossmember, you can design a stacked element.
I think fought a battle there when I was playing Delta Force; Blackhawk Down.
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I think fought a battle there when I was playing Delta Force; Blackhawk Down.
It is a "Tactical Training Facility", so hopefully I've made a difference and saved a life or two. It'd be pretty cool to use it in Rasterwerks.
:-)
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I think fought a battle there when I was playing Delta Force; Blackhawk Down.
It is a "Tactical Training Facility", so hopefully I've made a difference and saved a life or two. It'd be pretty cool to use it in Rasterwerks.
:-)
haha yea, that'd be something. Delta Force had the ability to create custom maps, and one of the objects available for use were shipping containers, with doors open or closed... some of the lazier people would build whole intricate structures out of closed up containers, like legos, even stacking some at an angle to make ramp-like stairways to get up to the top of towers made of nothing but hundreds of stacked containers.
That's a pretty cool facility, and a good example of where it would be a sound practice to recycle and reuse something like that.
How much work was needed for reinforcing those things?
The first reply I got from one of the engineers was "The R-value on those things must be next to $#!+" which would be another concern for only habitable applications.
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[Frankfort, Illinois Pic1 (http://www.theswamp.org/screens/index.php?dir=DGCS/&file=MVC-012S.JPG)
Frankfort, Illinois Pic2 (http://www.theswamp.org/screens/index.php?dir=DGCS/&file=Frankfort%20%281%29.JPG)
in short that is Ugly stuff.... :roll:
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[Frankfort, Illinois Pic1 (http://www.theswamp.org/screens/index.php?dir=DGCS/&file=MVC-012S.JPG)
Frankfort, Illinois Pic2 (http://www.theswamp.org/screens/index.php?dir=DGCS/&file=Frankfort%20%281%29.JPG)
in short that is Ugly stuff.... :roll:
Yep. Often times no one cares what it looks like ;) Pretty cost money.
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[Frankfort, Illinois Pic1 (http://www.theswamp.org/screens/index.php?dir=DGCS/&file=MVC-012S.JPG)
Frankfort, Illinois Pic2 (http://www.theswamp.org/screens/index.php?dir=DGCS/&file=Frankfort%20%281%29.JPG)
in short that is Ugly stuff.... :roll:
Yep. Often times no one cares what it looks like ;) Pretty cost money.
Two words:
Municipality Budgets
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Keith/Josh
What killed the engineering for me on these was the lateral. The ones I looked at had good columns at the corners but relied on that heavy gage corrugated siding for lateral restraint, and heavy gage corrugated siding just ain't in the code for shearwalls. Also, as I recall, the corrugated sidewalls also have to provide for vertical shear in the vertical bending of the side walls from gravity loads. I guess if that material was in the Steel Deck Design Manual it would work.
Correct, but rather than rely upon a chart that tells me what the properties of a specific metal is, I can instead use the strength of the metal itself, which is readily available, provided you can determine the grade of the steel.
Applying lateral loads to corrigated (if the corrigation is vertical) is probably not a smart thing to do. You can however, use the calculation of a sheathing applied to both the interior and exterior of the structure to justify the shear values needed to comply with codes. With the roof and floor, obviously you would need to determine the attachment method, downloads, uplifts and lateral loads placed upon the structure. That isn't impossible to do, just so long as you have the proper values.
Incidently, way back in 1977, the US Army conducted engineering tests on a variety of shipping containers for use as mobile buildings, temporary housing, along with other unique uses. They issued a report that the shipping containers as a structure exceed all structural requirements, including the heaviest snow loads, and could be placed anywhere in the world without adverse effect.
I know codes change and we learn more ... but there are many engineering and architectural firms now using containers as housing.
As far as insulation is concerned, I was reading where some company has developed an R90 insulation that fits in 4 inches. I can imagine that it isn't cheap though.
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R90 in 4" ? Wowzers...
After reading your reply Keith, I think I may just make it a point to sit down and mention it to the boss. This could be something new and different to our area (I've not seen one anywhere around here yet) that would be well received and maybe get our name around a bit more. Something tells me that if this'd be successful anywhere, it'd be in hurricane areas that would like to see good solid metal building structure, cheap to replace in case something DOES happen, and git-r-done, don't make 'er pretty type settings. A lot of people around here fit that bill to a Tee, including some of our clients.
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Well, after a few beers and a blues band, I finally managed to nail down an estimate budget number. Looks like it's gonna be sticks and leaves for construction materials, and a 1 by for plumbing. We'll tie into existing neighboring electrical via extension chord, and insulate using a tarp.
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I spelled Jamaican wrong, didn't I.
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Well, after a few beers and a blues band, I finally managed to nail down an estimate budget number. Looks like it's gonna be sticks and leaves for construction materials, and a 1 by for plumbing. We'll tie into existing neighboring electrical via extension chord, and insulate using a tarp.
:lmao:
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Well, after a few beers and a blues band, I finally managed to nail down an estimate budget number. Looks like it's gonna be sticks and leaves for construction materials, and a 1 by for plumbing. We'll tie into existing neighboring electrical via extension chord, and insulate using a tarp.
See what his schedule is like. If he waits a few years he can go around after hurricanes and pick up materials to re-use.
*Johnny Cash* "I got it one piece at a time... and it didn't cost me a dime.... you'll know it's me when I come through your town....."
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Actually I was joking. Hehe. Client was very receptive to the container home idea, and we'll be designing in that direction. Target date for site preparation will be late Nov.
I'm keeping in mind the Fung Shuei (sp) -iness, and all the ergonomical impact, as well as the surrounding natural beauty. Containers as residential structures have an Art-Deco feel to them by themselves, so I'm going to use 4 containers as an "inner shell", and surround them with entities that will blend in to the scenery. This way, there'll be an inner sanctuary for inclement weather and an outer facade that serves as an extension of the dwelling. This is my intent, we'll see where it ends up.
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Actually I was joking. Hehe. Client was very receptive to the container home idea, and we'll be designing in that direction. Target date for site preparation will be late Nov.
I'm keeping in mind the Fung Shuei (sp) -iness, and all the ergonomical impact, as well as the surrounding natural beauty. Containers as residential structures have an Art-Deco feel to them by themselves, so I'm going to use 4 containers as an "inner shell", and surround them with entities that will blend in to the scenery. This way, there'll be an inner sanctuary for inclement weather and an outer facade that serves as an extension of the dwelling. This is my intent, we'll see where it ends up.
I don't know how much you are at liberty to share, regarding the project, but I'd be much interesting seeing this project develop. I'm very interested in this container construction idea, and what some people have done with it.
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I'll share what I can Josh.
:-)
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http://www.deltechomes.com/hurricaneproof.php?PHPSESSID=34c64f335a1408c029dabb1e67ad8e16
I know this is not metal construction...but we looked at them when we were building..and almost did one...we didn't because our building site wanted a more linear plan.....
I am not sure about Jamaica, but in the US Virgins ( and on Block Island as well) there is an unwritten code.....
Be sure to use local contractors where you can ,due to the small islandeconomy, if you don't....you may not be able to get anyone to work on your property after it is built...gardeners...plumbers....housecleaners etc....you kind of get black listed...so it would be important to find this out ahead of time from the locals....
The summer I spent out on Block Island, there was a completed condo complex that sat empty because they had used exclusively off island contractors and the realators, taxi's etc would not even go on the property....
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Good info. CG!
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We've got time to consider other options, although very fitting for the situation, this looks like it may be a bit beyond what client is willing to spend. I'm involved in this only as a friend with drafting/design experience, and am trying to save the client as much money as possible. Given the available resources at my disposal (i.e. metal fabrication), I'm attempting to use cheap materials creatively. That is very cool though, thanks for the link.
:-)
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We've got time to consider other options, although very fitting for the situation, this looks like it may be a bit beyond what client is willing to spend. I'm involved in this only as a friend with drafting/design experience, and am trying to save the client as much money as possible. Given the available resources at my disposal (i.e. metal fabrication), I'm attempting to use cheap materials creatively. That is very cool though, thanks for the link.
:-)
I found a ton of metal pre-fab out of Australlia and New Zeland --very cool and inexpensive... it didn't make sense with shipping to the US, but since you will probably be shipping from at least the US, you might search there...that was 4 years ago, but I bet they have only gotten better....
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We have resources for the materials I "intend" to use all over the world, so shipping is not a concern (at the moment). Very much appreciated, though.