Author Topic: Dual Monitors  (Read 31403 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Maverick®

  • Seagull
  • Posts: 14778
Re: Dual Monitors
« Reply #45 on: January 16, 2007, 08:44:43 AM »
  Show me a study that proves every one of those users are more productive than if they were using a 15" CRT.  And make sure it justifies the cost of the larger monitors vs. the smaller ones.

Keith™

  • Villiage Idiot
  • Seagull
  • Posts: 16899
  • Superior Stupidity at its best
Re: Dual Monitors
« Reply #46 on: January 16, 2007, 08:49:41 AM »
Randy, depending upon your OS, it is entirely possible to drive 2 monitors with a single video card (yep .. a single card) What it takes is a special $19 splitter and a little know how
Cool, show me how.
Dual monitor splitter available from Dell just plug it into the video output of the card and plug in the monitors to the cable. Setup the seperate desktops in Windows in the display properties.

... anyone can have 2 monitors for a whole lot less than a larger one.
Oh? tell me how to get two monitors cheaper than getting one?? All the wide formats I'm looking at are only about thirty-five percent more than a standard format monitor, so two would be a lot more than one.
1-30" monitor = $1900
2-20" monitors + splitter = $420
Huge cost savings for more real estate.
Don't take my word for it, look up and compare the prices yourself ...

I can double my monitor space for the addition of a monitor. I can get a decent 20" monitor for just under $180. That means I have the equivalent of a 30"+ screen for a fifth of the cost of a 30" monitor.
If you count the space of the original monitor, you have to count its cost as well.  And I don't know about your office, but we don't have an office that will fit two 20" CRT type monitors and still have room for a user.  But that aside, your scenerio has just spent around two hundred dollars on hardware and probably another fifty bucks on installation... for what in return?  That's why I'm looking for something that gives real numbers for ROI.  Our own tests here on a small sample of users indicated very little if any real production advantage with two monitors.

Estimates range to 42% improvement in productivity
Defects lowered by 26%
lines of code increased by 10%

Sorry, but those don't qualify as little benefit. True story .. a contractor I did some work for some years ago did manual data entry, I wrote a piece of software to do it, but the numbers kept coming out different than the ones the employees were doing manually so the company wouldn't purchase it. The cost benefit ratio didn't make sense to them. In the end the program proved to be correct as after they ran a batch of 10000 milled aluminum valve bodies with the wrong information. They had to be scrapped and cost them weeks of down time as well as the production cost of the billets that had to be destroyed.

The point it, it is very difficult to put a tangible number to the prevention of an error. A single error can cost nothing, or it can cost hundreds of millions of dollars damage or worse lost lives. How can you put a value on that?

If I was shown that doing something would reduce my error rate by 26%, I would do it. My reputation is worth a whole lot more than the cost of a few monitors. But then the big coperate guys don't think like that.

I think you need a better argument.
If you'll go back through this thread you'll find that I'm not arguing, but looking for solid data on the production value of two monitors.  Saying it's "obvious" is NOT data.

How can an individual prove an intangible? How do you assign data to something that is difficult to quantify at best? If an employee is happy, they are more productive, that has been proven over and over again... for proof, go to the local Walmart or fast food joint ... see how much help you get from an unhappy employee, then compare that to a happy one. Then make your own judgement.

Since you wouldn't accept my survey I showed you,
Oh I accepted it, it just doesn't say what you thought it did.

Oh .. it said exactly what I said it did ... you just chose to ignore it as it didn't fit your argument.

and finally there was one with regard to larger monitors, your position has changed to one of cost vs profit ...
That's always been the point.  Why spend money if there is NO apprecable improvement in productivity?

No, originally you wanted to know what surveys showed increased productivity. The cost benefit analysis came after your started back peddling


and since cost vs profit is a no brainer (if you were choosing to get a larger monitor vs a second monitor), you would by necessity have to choose the second monitor due to the sheer cost savings to getting a larger one.
Again you've missed the point fairly wide.  You're assuming, in error, that we're adding monitors to existing machines. The choice is buying two monitors (plus hardware) as opposed to buying one monitor.  So far, I haven't found a case where two are cheaper than one.

Well, previously you said you had 500 users ... are we to presume these guys do it all by hand now? I doubt that ... so if they do it now already using computers, you already have 500 monitors, thus you don't need to buy 2 each, just 1 each. Your excuses are beginning to get so convoluted and intertwined that you are making less and less sense as this discussion continues.
Proud provider of opinion and arrogance since November 22, 2003 at 09:35:31 am
CadJockey Militia Field Marshal

Find me on https://parler.com @kblackie

Krushert

  • Seagull
  • Posts: 13679
  • FREE BEER Tomorrow!!
Re: Dual Monitors
« Reply #47 on: January 16, 2007, 08:55:43 AM »
.... but nothing that would pass a bean-counter.
B&M Beans is right up the road from me.  Send your beans counters there and they would be in their glory  :-)
I + XI = X is true ...  ... if you change your perspective.

I no longer CAD or Model, I just hang out here picking up the empties beer cans

Maverick®

  • Seagull
  • Posts: 14778
Re: Dual Monitors
« Reply #48 on: January 16, 2007, 08:57:51 AM »
B&M Beans is right up the road from me. 

  You're like pop up video my man!  :-)

Krushert

  • Seagull
  • Posts: 13679
  • FREE BEER Tomorrow!!
Re: Dual Monitors
« Reply #49 on: January 16, 2007, 09:05:04 AM »
B&M Beans is right up the road from me. 

  You're like pop up video my man!  :-)

I can't help it, I really can't.
I try to, honestly I do.
  :evil:
I + XI = X is true ...  ... if you change your perspective.

I no longer CAD or Model, I just hang out here picking up the empties beer cans

Krushert

  • Seagull
  • Posts: 13679
  • FREE BEER Tomorrow!!
Re: Dual Monitors
« Reply #50 on: January 16, 2007, 09:08:29 AM »
Lessee, second vid-card, plus the time to install it, plus the second monitor purchase price times five hundred users.  Sorry that's not my definition of cheap.

Two questions Randy.

First; are you Union shop?

Second; are you using "statistical process control"?

I + XI = X is true ...  ... if you change your perspective.

I no longer CAD or Model, I just hang out here picking up the empties beer cans

CADaver

  • Guest
Re: Dual Monitors
« Reply #51 on: January 16, 2007, 09:44:29 AM »
Dual monitor splitter available from Dell just plug it into the video output of the card and plug in the monitors to the cable. Setup the seperate desktops in Windows in the display properties.
Cool, I'll check it out.

1-30" monitor = $1900
2-20" monitors + splitter = $420
Huge cost savings for more real estate.
Don't take my word for it, look up and compare the prices yourself ...
Again with the thirty inch.  BTW, I do very little these days except compare prices for myself.

Estimates range to 42% improvement in productivity
Defects lowered by 26%
lines of code increased by 10%

Sorry, but those don't qualify as little benefit....
...
If I was shown that doing something would reduce my error rate by 26%, I would do it.
So you believe every "increased productivity" claim on the internet and implement it without checking the data? Are you sure you want to stick with that concept? Cuz' if you do, I can make some serious money.  Or is it you believe the only ones that support your preconceptions?

If I was shown that doing something would reduce my error rate by 26%, I would do it.
I have a program that will reduce your error rate by eighteen percent or more.  Send me four hundred dollars and I'll mail it to you.  OOhhh, you want me to SHOW you something.... me too.

My reputation is worth a whole lot more than the cost of a few monitors. But then the big coperate guys don't think like that.
Oh we do, we just prefer some level of fact to support a claim before we throw money at it.

How can an individual prove an intangible?
Productivity is very tangible.  The claim above of ten percent increased productivity and twenty-six percent reduction in defects is a tangible result.  I just want to know where those number came from and how much TP was required to cleann them up.

How do you assign data to something that is difficult to quantify at best?
Wait a minute, are you now questioning the posted results you want me to swallow without question?

If an employee is happy, they are more productive, that has been proven over and over again...
And we can make employees happy any number of ways.  This goes directly to my questioning of the results posted.  His claim of increased productivity and decreased defects was based solely on dual monitors, but what else went on during that year?  Like reducing a work week from seventy hours to fifty or having a free lunch every other Thursday.  Employee morale is a big issue, but it is not had ONLY at the implementation of dual monitors.  If an employee is unhappy over his insurance coverage, dual monitors will do little to improve his mood.

Oh .. it said exactly what I said it did ... you just chose to ignore it as it didn't fit your argument.
It makes a claim with no support, I asked for support, not claims.

No, originally you wanted to know what surveys showed increased productivity.
You said that surveys had proved that dual monitors increased productivity, I asked "Oh? Which?"

The cost benefit analysis came after your started back peddling
Sorry I didn't give a life history with my original question, but I'm still forward peddling.  You seem to think hat my interest in this topic begins and ends with this thread.  Sorry to disappoint, but I've been looking into this for a couple of years now trying to justify buying two monitors.  You of all people on this forum should know that everything I do has a cost-benefit analysis connected to it somewhere along the way.  

So far, I haven't seen any survey that proves increased productivity.  Our small sample survey a couple of years ago produced a very small increase in production, but there were too many other factors that would have accounted for that blip to lay the benefit on dual monitors.  If realize no benefit in dual monitors, why spend the money?

Well, previously you said you had 500 users ... are we to presume these guys do it all by hand now? I doubt that ... so if they do it now already using computers, you already have 500 monitors, thus you don't need to buy 2 each, just 1 each. Your excuses are beginning to get so convoluted and intertwined that you are making less and less sense as this discussion continues.
The bulk of those monitors are over three years old.  We replace between ten and fifteen machines a month, updating our entire inventory every forty-six to fifty months, give or take.  Our average use-life for monitors is right at four years (LCDs are doing a lot better than that), so the rotation is just about right.  We don't/won't add second monitors to existing stations, (especially if there is no benefit in the effort), we replace the older systems with new hardware including monitors.

CADaver

  • Guest
Re: Dual Monitors
« Reply #52 on: January 16, 2007, 10:13:53 AM »
Two questions Randy.
First; are you Union shop?
Second; are you using "statistical process control"?
NO, and sorta, kinda, to a degree.  In the shop, we employ primarily a modified TQM strategy that measures success implementing modified SPC techniques increasing the usual sampling rate by a factor of two to four depending on product line. On the engineering side we use CPM to manage progress and a similar modified TQM strategy for quality control, at some points increasing sampling rates to one-hundred percent.  One of our new quality engineers thinks we've sorta happened upon a modified "Six Sigma" methodology.

Krushert

  • Seagull
  • Posts: 13679
  • FREE BEER Tomorrow!!
Re: Dual Monitors
« Reply #53 on: January 16, 2007, 10:27:23 AM »
Two questions Randy.
First; are you Union shop?
Second; are you using "statistical process control"?
NO, and sorta, kinda, to a degree.  In the shop, we employ primarily a modified TQM strategy that measures success implementing modified SPC techniques increasing the usual sampling rate by a factor of two to four depending on product line. On the engineering side we use CPM to manage progress and a similar modified TQM strategy for quality control, at some points increasing sampling rates to one-hundred percent.  One of our new quality engineers thinks we've sorta happened upon a modified "Six Sigma" methodology.
Ahh Memories.
I + XI = X is true ...  ... if you change your perspective.

I no longer CAD or Model, I just hang out here picking up the empties beer cans

Maverick®

  • Seagull
  • Posts: 14778
Re: Dual Monitors
« Reply #54 on: January 16, 2007, 10:29:05 AM »
  Show me a study that proves every one of those users are more productive than if they were using a 15" CRT.  And make sure it justifies the cost of the larger monitors vs. the smaller ones.

Bump

CADaver

  • Guest
Re: Dual Monitors
« Reply #55 on: January 16, 2007, 10:31:22 AM »
Ahh Memories.
When the thirty-thousand pound bowling ball gets rolling, changing its direction can prove lethal.

CADaver

  • Guest
Re: Dual Monitors
« Reply #56 on: January 16, 2007, 10:39:53 AM »
  Show me a study that proves every one of those users are more productive than if they were using a 15" CRT.  And make sure it justifies the cost of the larger monitors vs. the smaller ones.

Bump
We went to nineteens when our supplier could give 'em to us for the same cost as fifteens.  Replaced the nineteens with twenty ones for the same reason.  We could maybe save a little now going back to fifteens but that would probably be detrimental to morale. 

But to answer your question, I don't have one. 

To be real clear here to everyone, I have no surveys (other than our own) that make any claims of anything at all at any time, nor have I ever claimed to possess a survey that made any claim one way or the other.  Someone else claimed that surveys proved increased productivity with dual monitors, I just wanted to see it.  So far it hasn't been posted.  We've seen some anecdotes, but no proof.

Krushert

  • Seagull
  • Posts: 13679
  • FREE BEER Tomorrow!!
Re: Dual Monitors
« Reply #57 on: January 16, 2007, 10:52:44 AM »
  Show me a study that proves every one of those users are more productive than if they were using a 15" CRT.  And make sure it justifies the cost of the larger monitors vs. the smaller ones.

Bump
I can't believe it!  :-o  :-o
Maverick just un-hijacked a thread. 

Let be known on this day; the 16th of January, the year of out lord (or Yours) 2007, That Maverick stop a hijacking a thread that was in progress.  There was great rejoicing in all of the land & waters known as the TheSwamp.
 :-D :-D
I + XI = X is true ...  ... if you change your perspective.

I no longer CAD or Model, I just hang out here picking up the empties beer cans

Maverick®

  • Seagull
  • Posts: 14778
Re: Dual Monitors
« Reply #58 on: January 16, 2007, 11:45:22 AM »
To be real clear here to everyone, I have no surveys (other than our own) that make any claims of anything at all at any time, nor have I ever claimed to possess a survey that made any claim one way or the other. 

  This makes it very easy to maintain your position.  It's very easy to look at any information given and discredit it.  It is more difficult to come up with conflicting information that disproves the other.  You will never find a report, survey, or finding of any kind that you can't say " there is information missing so it must be bunk".

  What color was Newton's apple?  What kind of shoes was Aristotle wearing when he "proved" the earth was round?

  Your comments argue that dual monitors do not increase productivity and are not worth the money. But yet you take the easy route and challenge others to come up with the data that is impossible to get given your standards. 

  If you don't claim anything you can't be called out on it.   Convenient for you.

Or you could provide "your" surveys.  That we could discredit just as easily.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2007, 11:47:07 AM by Maverick® »

Greg B

  • Seagull
  • Posts: 12417
  • Tell me a Joke!
Re: Dual Monitors
« Reply #59 on: January 16, 2007, 11:55:20 AM »
Sorry, not as yet.  Unless you wish to believe everything posted on the internet without substantiation.  Personally I choose to wait for real data.

I have hard proof here on my desk from an accredited survey/research firm.

I'd post the data, but I can't because it would then be posted on the internet, which you state doesn't make it true.   :laugh: