TheSwamp
CAD Forums => CAD General => Topic started by: Mark on October 23, 2006, 09:11:58 AM
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If you use a vertical product please select the base AutoCAD version.
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And I still use r13 for my plats even if you don't give it a place on your poll!
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Hence the name Dinosaur!?!
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Hence the name Dinosaur!?!
Yes, that is pretty much the way I introduced myself to TheSwamp. (http://www.theswamp.org/index.php?topic=39.msg35191#msg35191) R13 also is required to run my preferred drafting annotation package for plats (at least until Civil 3D tames its parcel labeling).
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To bad the LT was not on the list.
I would be interested in seeing the percentage of LT users.
craigr
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Craig, just select what release and state whether or not you use LT. As for me, I have used LT2002 and loathed every minute of it. Currently using ADT2006. We won't be upgrading to 2007. We'll see if they make 2008 or whatever they call it worth upgrading to.
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I am using LT2005, though I do have LT2007 installed. - I have had a HORRIBLE time getting my customizations into 2007!
I used the Help file's little 'movie' & read the instructions, but they still won't come in anywhere near the way I have them in 2005. Half of the icons images are missing & all of the Flyouts are either missing or wrong.
I am thinking about TOTALLY uninstalling 2007, then re-installing & trying again to import them, just to rule out the possiblity that I missed a step or did it wrong.
So, I am sticking with 2005 until I HAVE to get the 2007 up and running right.
craigr
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To bad the LT was not on the list.
I would be interested in seeing the percentage of LT users.
craigr
There ya go! You can change your vote if you have done so already.
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To bad the LT was not on the list.
I would be interested in seeing the percentage of LT users.
craigr
There ya go! You can change your vote if you have done so already.
Thanks.
craigr
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craigr, somehow I don't think we'll have much company... :roll:
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I'm the only Windows98 user!?
Ok, ok, its my "test" computer at home. I've got so much junk on it that I never use but am worried that someday I might need it, and I can't upgrade to XP cuz most of it won't work anymore, and I don't want to go out and buy new versions of the software for it, blah, blah, blah...
But hey, I've NEVER had a virus on it! Its an island.
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Somehow I didn't think there would be any 'Inverntor' users.
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Craig, just select what release and state whether or not you use LT. As for me, I have used LT2002 and loathed every minute of it.
We're currently doing a lot of work at the Colorado Springs Airport, so much so that the general contractor had us move one of our Autocad techs on-site. He's out there in a trailor with a couple of techs who work for the general contractor.
The GC's techs produce a variety of exhibits, and therefore needed to use Autocad. They balked at Autodesk's prices for something like Land Desktop, and even Vanilla Autocad was to expensive, so they got a couple of seats of LT. They've taken to calling it "Autocad Limited".
There was one task they were doing repeatedly, on almost a daily basis. The way they were doing it in LT, it was taking them forever, like 4-6 hours per day. When our tech moved out with them, we showed them how he could do the same task in Land Desktop in about 3 minutes. Now our tech does the initial work for them, then hands them a DWG file, saving them 4-6 hours of work EVERY DAY.
Needless to say, we consider LT to be nothing but a joke... :lmao:
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Craig, just select what release and state whether or not you use LT. As for me, I have used LT2002 and loathed every minute of it.
Needless to say, we consider LT to be nothing but a joke... :lmao:
Well, the good thing about me being stuck with LT is that I have never used the 'full' version. This way I don't know what I am missing.
It's tough to upgrade when it isn't your dime.
craigr
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Hence the name Dinosaur!?!
:lmao:
Tell 'em Dino, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it"
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07 Vanilla and XP Pro
As for LT, I would go crazy if I couldn't use VBA
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Above Adesk programmers cubicles....?
If it ain't broke..... put it in a different color box and break it.
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07 Vanilla and XP Pro
As for LT, I would go crazy if I couldn't use VBA
So can I use my lack of full AutoCad to explain my behavior?
craigr
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Im not sure what you mean by that, but I have tried to program everything into a button like LT requires, and I thought I was going to go crazy. Its so much easier in VBA or LISP.
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My recent behavior -
Someone posted some code for me recently that I told them didn't solve my problem. So I chased the problem the long way around the barn to solve my problem. Then, this moring I gave their code another try and it worked fine. - So I humbly apologized & thanked them.
I have found that I can do most of the things I need by programming them into a macro, it's simply a bunch of keystrokes. But you sometimes need to go the long way around the barn to get it done.
This forum has taught me MUCH about how to draw / edit with the keyboard and avoid the popup menus.
I would think that if I did have the full version of AutoCad, I might come up with something to use VBA &/or Lisp, but since I really don't have a need to learn it right now, I again don't know what I am missing.
I thought about learning VBA for MS Word, but haven't yet. Like many other things, I keep putting it off.
craigr
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I thought about learning VBA for MS Word, but haven't yet. Like many other things, I keep putting it off.
Whats funny about this (not laughing at you, but at myself) is I have no idea what I would use VBA for in Word or Excel. I can see using Access with forms for data entry, but beyond that, I dont have a clue.
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I thought about learning VBA for MS Word, but haven't yet. Like many other things, I keep putting it off.
Whats funny about this (not laughing at you, but at myself) is I have no idea what I would use VBA for in Word or Excel. I can see using Access with forms for data entry, but beyond that, I dont have a clue.
I often have 3k & 4K page files that I need to sort for certain information then put in a certain order. I have quite a few macros in MS Word to do some of this, but I have to run them MANY times in a large file. I would like to write a VBA to do this with ONE command rather than have to hit 'CTRL-3' MANY times.
I thought about taking a course at the local community college, but will probably just learn it on my own - like I usually do.
craigr
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07 Vanilla and XP Pro
Same here
As for LT, I would go crazy if I couldn't use VBA
I can't use VBA and I do go crazy. ;-)
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I can't use VBA and I do go crazy. ;-)
But this can be fixed
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I can't use VBA and I do go crazy. ;-)
But this can be fixed
Yep, you can get tablets for both ailments now. Check you email ..
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AC2006, AC2007, Win XP Pro
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Needless to say, we consider LT to be nothing but a joke... :lmao:
It's not a joke -- you just have to know its capabilities and limitations. There are many disciplines for which LT would be inapprpriate, but there are also several for which it works just fine.
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Needless to say, we consider LT to be nothing but a joke... :lmao:
It's not a joke -- you just have to know its capabilities and limitations. There are many disciplines for which LT would be inapprpriate, but there are also several for which it works just fine.
One Line Schematics
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Kate - Cruel arn't they?
They just don't understand that you really don't need to spend multi thousands of dollars on a program.
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It's not a joke -- you just have to know its capabilities and limitations. There are many disciplines for which LT would be inapprpriate, but there are also several for which it works just fine.
LT is actually a pretty capable package for the price. Granted 2007LT has gotten pricier as when I bought 2002LT. If you are starting out on your own and want to be legal with software, LT is a very good starting point. I bought 2002LT when I first started as I could afford it a lot easier then the full version. 4 years later, I now had the justification to buy full 2007.
If you are beginning in CAD, LT will serve your purpose for a while. As your expertise gets better and you start streamlining, the full version will then serve it's purpose.
For many companies, LT is more then sufficient. Many companies do not customize or streamline like many of us on TheSwamp.
I'm running 2002LT and 2007 full on XP Pro...
As well as Microstation V8
Pieter
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Kate - Cruel arn't they?
They just don't understand that you really don't need to spend multi thousands of dollars on a program.
I am amazed that LT users actually seem to be efficient with the limited tools they have at their disposal. I tip my hat to those creative enough to make LT work for them.
Part of the problem understanding the use for LT is that as you start using the vertical applications you drift further from needing heavy customization and even the core AutoCAD commands. Eventually even regular AutoCAD seems like a bit of comic relief when you can go an entire day without using a core command except perhaps zoom, save or plot. I would likely be helpless anymore if I were restricted to LT and only a little better in vanilla AutoCAD with only a handful of routines to ease the pain after a year using only the Civil 3D toolbars, toolspace and the context menus.
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Well, the good thing about me being stuck with LT is that I have never used the 'full' version. This way I don't know what I am missing.
It's tough to upgrade when it isn't your dime.
craigr
I guess this goes for my Boss also. He has never seen how the Full version would benefit us, so why spend the money on it?
craigr
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Kate - Cruel arn't they?
They just don't understand that you really don't need to spend multi thousands of dollars on a program.
I am amazed that LT users actually seem to be efficient with the limited tools they have at their disposal. I tip my hat to those creative enough to make LT work for them.
Part of the problem understanding the use for LT is that as you start using the vertical applications you drift further from needing heavy customization and even the core AutoCAD commands. Eventually even regular AutoCAD seems like a bit of comic relief when you can go an entire day without using a core command except perhaps zoom, save or plot. I would likely be helpless anymore if I were restricted to LT and only a little better in vanilla AutoCAD with only a handful of routines to ease the pain after a year using only the Civil 3D toolbars, toolspace and the context menus.
Let me ask this...
Is Civil 3D a stand alone program?
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Let me ask this...
Is Civil 3D a stand alone program?
It is kind of a hybrid . . . it can be run as plain vanilla if you don't load all of the civil stuff on start-up; it can also be run as MAP 3D if the right menus are loaded and if you start it out of the box you have Civil 3D. All of the commands are there, but many of them don't (or at least didn't prior to r2007) play nice with Civil 3D objects - hence the phrase "power exit."
An ideal Civil 3D drawing would be made up exclusively of these objects which are really only a visual expression of the model data rather than a collection of the usual drawing elements. Two or more copies of the same object can exist and look nothing like any other depending on the style assigned to that particular copy. Within the drawing they behave more like a complex block with several elements of different layers, colors and linetypes as defined in the style. The labels even are part of the given expression rather than text elements that can be manipulated or edited.
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My questions more lies like this...
Can you buy Civil 3D, install it on a brand new computer with just an operating system and no other cad software on it, and start using the program?
No add-on's, no customization programs.
Just install the program, open it up and start drawing civil stuff?
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C3d, ADT, et al, minus Revit and maybe 1 or 2 other acquisitional tools are all "vertical products" to Autocad. IOW, you buy the Vertical App and you get Autocad as its core package. The way I've always seen it is like this: Autocad started out as an everything for everybody kind of package. Eventually, they realized that they could do better if they branched ACAD into different fields, specific to the task of that field. Autocad is in there, and you can use it the way it always was intended, but the VA's gives you more ability in your specific field. It's still Autocad, it just has more and yes, it costs more. I don't know how much. I haven't bought it or looked that up in a long time. No, it's not stand-alone, but it's not an add-on either.
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Yes . . . but only if you know how to use the program. If I walked up with 10 years experience in vanilla AutoCAD or Land Desktop and no specific Civil 3D training, I could easily waste WEEKS getting nothing drawn that was "Civil 3D". With even 3 days of decent training I could start using it as it is intended.
Daron, Civil 3D is very similar to Revit, right down to the toolspace interface and expression of the model by various styles.
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Oh. From your previous post, I gathered since it can be part of AutoCAD, that it was more similar to ADT in the VA respect. I'm not well versed in Revit, but it doesn't appear to really have ties to the Autocad core.
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There is a taste of both, but core AutoCAD command interaction with Civil 3D objects is very limited - even osnaps barely work if at all on some objects. Element visibility is best controlled within the style rather than layer manipulation. Anything that is created via normal AutoCAD methods reacts as expected, but a Civil 3D object will ususally "surprise" you with its interaction.
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Daron hit on the point I was going to make about cost.
It seems that for a few convienient features, you can get this program (I'd call it an Add-On cause you have AutoCAD with extra features). You pay for autocad + you pay for the extra feature.
Hmm...I got to actually working and forgot where I was taking this though process...I'll figure it eventually.
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No, it is more like AutoCAD comes along for the ride. I think most of the reason Civil 3D is struggling is Autodesk keeping it tied to the dwg format. It began as catia software and was hammered into dwg compatibility after it was purchased. This is far more than a few extra features coded into AutoCAD.
These C3D objects interact dynamically with each other and will instantly update all associated objects when one is modified. I had to move the very first manhole in a sewer line. All of the stationing, the existing ground profile for the affected pipe run, pipe lengths and slopes were affected. When I finished physically moving the manhole, every element over the entire 5 sheets of plans was updated to the current data within the model. If I get new survey data that changes the surface to a more accurate representation, the model updates the surface and any profile over the affected area and any object tied to it is instantly updated as well.
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It seems that for a few convienient features, you can get this program (I'd call it an Add-On cause you have AutoCAD with extra features). You pay for autocad + you pay for the extra feature.
You are correct here. I can create the same EXACT LOOKING drawing using Datacad, Turbocad, Autocad, LDT, and C3D.
However, the "few convenient fetaures" enable me to create and, more importantly, edit that drawing/model in far less time. If my time was worth nothing then this difference wouldn't matter. But, last I checked, my charge out rate is rather high. Even when I was self-employed I enjoyed taking home a paycheck every now & then.
Here's some interesting stats (guess-timated, but deemed accurate) to complete a typical project.
When I was designing and drafting by hand, I needed myself & at least 2 technicians for a minimum of 6 weeks.
Then we were introduced to AutoCad, we were able to save about 3-5 days time.
Then we learned, or Autodesk actually gave us the tools, to program repetitive tasks and we were able to eliminate one of the techs.
Then DCA/Softdesk/Adcadd/LDT came along in it's various versions, eventually leading to the entire design/drafting team being just 1 person (me) needing just 3 weeks.
Now with C3D I'm confident that, once I master it's use, the total time will be reduced to 2 weeks, or less. Yes, it's that good.
Now there is no way that anyone can tell me that the $8000 price tag for C3D is not worth it. (2-3 weeks of my time vs 6 weeks of me & 2 other's time) The software has paid for itself in just 1 finished project! The remainder of the savings can now be placed in the PROFIT column.
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I understand your point Jeff, and here is where I'm coming from to hype up DataCAD.
The developers of DataCAD are creating new features that are making everything smarter, like revit or ADT, but not creating it as an "add-on" package that has it's own price tag. It will be standard feature of DataCAD.
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That's fine, Greg, but will the price of DataCAD be going up to accomodate these new features? If not, how are they making a profit? If so, what about those users that don't need, or want, the new features.....why should they pay more for those?
It was exactly those questions (and others like them) that got AutoCAD to where it is today, IMHO.
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Don't you have to own all three properties before you can add a house using DataCAD?
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Don't you have to own all three properties before you can add a house using DataCAD?
Dude...it's old already!
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That's fine, Greg, but will the price of DataCAD be going up to accomodate these new features? If not, how are they making a profit? If so, what about those users that don't need, or want, the new features.....why should they pay more for those?
It was exactly those questions (and others like them) that got AutoCAD to where it is today, IMHO.
Nothing more then standard inflation pricing from what I understand.
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Nothing more then standard inflation pricing from what I understand.
If that works for their business model, More power to them. I didn't see anything on the horizon for Civil folks, though..... :-(
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I guess this goes for my Boss also. He has never seen how the Full version would benefit us, so why spend the money on it?
craigr
heh, that reminds me, I worked at an office where the boss believed AutoCAD was simply an electronic drawing board, he had a few lisp routines etc but that was it and we did some very complicated work there. He was more interested in the printed output than anything else. He believed the drafter and content was important, not the tools. He is still one of the best mech/steel detailers I've ever known!
The funny thing was, all the seats he had were mech desktop (because the sales rep talked him into it) and he never used a single feature, he could have been using Intellicad or a similar native .dwg package.
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'the boss believed AutoCAD was simply an electronic drawing board'
This goes for my bossess also. - I honestly believe this is the case with most people. Especially old 'paper' drafters that have never used it.
By bosses have no idea how much customizations I have built into our CAD! If our guys had to draw without them, they would be totally lost for quite awhile & time usage would skyrocket! - And remember, we use just LT! I would LOVE to play with LISPs, etc...
They have talked about going with a non-Autodesk product in the future due to the high prices, but again, they look at it as an 'electronic drawing board'. They don't see the power of it!
craigr
craigr
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I feel for you, I have left companies for that very reason.
I remember when I first used AutoCAD - v2.52. I hired in from about 8 years experience manual drafting. The only other designer had been using it for about a year. After about 5 days of my questions regarding commands (I was curious about 'explode') he finally told me: "To tell you the truth, I only use about 20 commands and I think that's all I'll ever use..."
Now I write automation routines to assist companies in design. I just finished one that will save a company tons of money annually, over 10 times my salary.
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I kinda wish the bossess DID know about how much I have modified CAD how much time / money it saves.
I wonder if it would help the salary a little.
Hey, every bit helps,
craigr
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It can be VERY lucritive. I love this kind of work. As a designer, I always felt like the necessary evil for companies (except consulting engineers). They need you but don't really want to.
It's different now, most companies are actually glad to pay me.
If you like this kind of work, you might try some work on the side or volunteer at your local user group to do a demonstration / talk about customizations. Make some connections and you will most likely start getting a lot of job offers for more money.
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My questions more lies like this...
Can you buy Civil 3D, install it on a brand new computer with just an operating system and no other cad software on it, and start using the program?
No add-on's, no customization programs.
Just install the program, open it up and start drawing civil stuff?
Sure, but without training there would be a substantial learning curve(somewhat even with training). Civil 3D is a specific version of AutoCAD aimed at automating many of the civil-specific functions civil designers execute on a regular basis. It's not so much an "add-on" as it is an overhead that uses basic AutoCAD as an engine.