Author Topic: Civil 3D - PRECISELY?  (Read 3340 times)

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Dinosaur

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Civil 3D - PRECISELY?
« on: September 06, 2006, 01:05:18 AM »
I have seen several discussions regarding the merits of creating alignments by picking the polyline vs. by layout.  I know Dana is already starting a reply by this point, but this is not what my question is about - yet and there are a couple more things coming up that should get an equal reaction from her.  What is really bothering me is the fact that VERY rarely will the bearing reported for any given line on the layout I work with EXACTLY that bearing.  They almost certainly an offset of some existing land line, boundary or right of way as determined by our surveyor.  He shoots the points, draws a line between, lists it and we have our bearing established - until we max out the angle units precision factor that is.  When he does the same thing for the line +/- 90 degrees from the first and we commence offsetting in earnest, we have the starting point for all sorts of lines that don't touch or overlap - and there goes Dana's keyboard again but I am still taking the scenic route home.  At some point in all of this, the roads start to curve and tangent off into their own non-parallel way to the rest of the world.  These curves and their resulting tangents are drawn to the exact central angle or bearing - more bad mojo the next time we run into one of the offsets.  I am starting to smell bad topology and in my right of way at that!  The first clue I get when this is ignored are when offsets from my centerline either cross or do not intersect.  I get around this by constructing my curves by fillet, putting any rounding in the tangent lengths, turn everything into a happy polyline and select my alignment by object.
And finally, my questions:
What happens to all of these lines when Civil 3D creates the alignment by layout?  I have heard that to create these parcels, the segments are created not by the actual geometry with its rounded bearings that represent exactly what is on the ground, but by whatever geometric license necessary for every bearing and distance to be exactly what the label says with respect to the drawings precision values.  In essence the actual courses seem to be fudged to match the label.  If so, this troubles me greatly, especially when the course is on a curve.  Are the offset curves true offsets that share the exact same center after the parcels are created?  If there are a number of lots along a curve in the right of way, are those true segments of that curve with the exact same center?  Is this a seed for more bad topology? Is The Dinosaur full of coprolite?
« Last Edit: September 15, 2006, 09:45:38 PM by DinØsaur »

Dinosaur

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Re: Civil 3D - PRECISELY?
« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2006, 12:01:00 PM »
t is interesting that nobody has seen fit to pick this one up and dissect it - even enough to tell me I am full of the well known substance and that this is a non-problem.  When this silence is the response over in the Autodesk discussion group, most of the time it is because it is either a very sensitive topic in Manchester or one that has already been resolved so many times they are all bored with it.  Hmm . . .  I don't recall ever seeing this discussed even once in any venue.

Cannon

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Re: Civil 3D - PRECISELY?
« Reply #2 on: September 10, 2006, 12:37:54 AM »
Or since none of us coded the silly thing, we don't feel qualified to answer what's happening internally in terms of calcs.

Send it to Dan and see what you get. His e-mail is all over the web.

Dinosaur

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Re: Civil 3D - PRECISELY?
« Reply #3 on: September 10, 2006, 12:54:17 AM »
Sorry, no ruffling intended.  I was wondering more if any problems had been noticed that could be attributed to this.  I heard for instance that a lot closure report will give slightly different results depending on the direction and possibly the starting point of the traverse.  This was in 2006 and I have not heard if this still happens in 2007 with the addition of the survey functions.  I sincerely hope this went away.

dbreigprobert

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Re: Civil 3D - PRECISELY?
« Reply #4 on: September 10, 2006, 09:49:21 PM »
and i thought i over-thunk things.  I have no idea.  I have a headache just thinking about it.  why can't this be easy?

seriously, i've just been slammed the past two weeks with two big subdivision projects that are giving me fits plus the usual other things i do.

i shall tackle this one sometime...

Dinosaur

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Re: Civil 3D - PRECISELY?
« Reply #5 on: September 10, 2006, 10:22:27 PM »
Yes, I am quite anal about my layout geometry.  The trouble is I have found too many streets during my Carree with the rights of way not parallel or the curbs not parallel with the centerline or lot lines drawn perpendicular to different lines not being parallel when they should be.  An even ornier situation from this condition are road tangents that aren't tangent to the curves.  I have spent hours tracking down these errors over the years, especially when found late and design elements may be affected.
I can usually attribute these to the fast and loose drawing style of my boss when doing a preliminary layout, but if my software starts flaking out on me too . . .

Dent Cermak

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Re: Civil 3D - PRECISELY?
« Reply #6 on: September 11, 2006, 01:01:29 PM »
I'll be danged if I am going to load up that POS just to answer your question!!  ;-) :lmao: ^-^

Dinosaur

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Re: Civil 3D - PRECISELY?
« Reply #7 on: October 03, 2006, 09:34:49 PM »
I'll be danged if I am going to load up that POS just to answer your question!!  ;-) :lmao: ^-^
Dent, you are entitled to your opinion on this software.  It may very well be of no use in your particular situation.  The fact that there are some out there even while they are actively help implement Civil 3D for themselves and other firms are still exploring alternatives like Carlson (that is now purported to work on top of Autodesk's entire civil suite including Civil 3D) gives one a clue to the current level of customer acceptance for Civil 3D.
I would also ask that before anyone dismisses you as some old phart mucking around the Mississippi bottoms with decade old technology because it is just more comfortable, they check out THIS thread you started describing what kind of survey technology you are personally involved with.

Dent Cermak

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Re: Civil 3D - PRECISELY?
« Reply #8 on: October 03, 2006, 11:16:37 PM »
D-Man, we are not using "decades old" technology on anything. Matter of fact, we are breaking ground that no one else has touched so far. And the latest version of Carlson is 2007. We've just loaded it up. It appears that by using this software on 2007 I can bypass your problem areas with vault and civil3d. Go to the Carlson web site and look at whatall comes with the total package and tell me again I am using "decades old" technology.
When we get our system set up and all coordinated, my company will be light years AHEAD of any other firm. And that will be on Autocad, Microstation and Geopac. Not to mention GPS robotics and RTK technology with guaranteed 1 cm accuracy for x, y and z.

Dinosaur

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Re: Civil 3D - PRECISELY?
« Reply #9 on: October 03, 2006, 11:27:24 PM »
Dent, you are a tough ol' geezer to give a complement! :pissed:

. . .
I would also ask that before anyone dismisses you as some old phart mucking around the Mississippi bottoms with decade old technology because it is just more comfortable, they check out THIS thread you started describing what kind of survey technology you are personally involved with.

I think your stuff is amazing and was trying to point some of those who don't seem to stray from Land Lubber and may have formed opinions based on your Civil 3D comments to some real leading edge things you are working with.  :kewl:
« Last Edit: October 03, 2006, 11:29:09 PM by DinØsaur »

Jeff_M

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  • C3D user & customizer
Re: Civil 3D - PRECISELY?
« Reply #10 on: October 04, 2006, 01:13:18 AM »
Dent, you are a tough ol' geezer to give a complement! :pissed:
I was thinking the same thing when I was reading his reply.....

Dent, slow down when you read, man. Hmmmm, I wonder how many other compliments you have skipped right on by.   :wink: