Author Topic: I imagine you all have heard...  (Read 7527 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Dinosaur

  • Guest
Re: I imagine you all have heard...
« Reply #15 on: June 05, 2008, 02:46:37 PM »
I say cheer for the Benjamins

sinc

  • Guest
Re: I imagine you all have heard...
« Reply #16 on: June 05, 2008, 04:19:18 PM »
We call 'em "Bennies" these days, since they disappear so much faster than they used to...   :-o

jpostlewait

  • Guest
Re: I imagine you all have heard...
« Reply #17 on: June 05, 2008, 08:17:19 PM »
Even though it's flawed the benefits out weigh the downside.

Just out of curiosity, which benefits are you talking about?  So far, the best benefit you've mentioned is that it provides a way to go back to previous versions when the current version gets trashed.  But that implies that the best benefit of Vault is that it helps cover for the fact that the DWG "technology" is severely flawed.  In other words, the Vault is a giant hack fix for another, more-fundamental problem.

Yup that's it.
Early stage learners tend to make mistakes and it's quicker to pull previous versions out of vault.
Easier to manage the Drefs through Vault.
And in the end drive space is cheap, these days.
I wish it did more or wasn't there but it is.
And it does add some value.

>>is severely flawed.<<
No just flawed like everything else.

mjfarrell

  • Seagull
  • Posts: 14444
  • Every Student their own Lesson
Re: I imagine you all have heard...
« Reply #18 on: June 05, 2008, 08:39:37 PM »
Even though it's flawed the benefits out weigh the downside.



Yup that's it.
Early stage learners tend to make mistakes



perhaps they needs to be learnt s'more better :wink:
Be your Best


Michael Farrell
http://primeservicesglobal.com/

sinc

  • Guest
Re: I imagine you all have heard...
« Reply #19 on: June 06, 2008, 08:24:16 AM »

Yup that's it.
Early stage learners tend to make mistakes and it's quicker to pull previous versions out of vault.
Easier to manage the Drefs through Vault.

So I think we basically agree.

As I said, there is value in a DMS.  But the way Autodesk implemented Vault+C3D is a disaster.  It would still be possible to get this benefit from Vault, if it were implemented in a way more-consistent with the design of a DMS, instead of the way it was shoe-horned onto C3D, and key C3D functionality was shoehorned into Vault instead of being in C3D.

And with good PM in C3D, it would be much easier to get good Model Data Management in C3D *without* using Vault.  In other words, we COULD'VE had something that worked better than either Data Shortcuts or Vault References, with a different design.  Autodesk made many, many design decisions that are very questionable.  They only make sense if looked at from the perspective that they bought Vault, and wanted some way of getting users to use it.  In other words, it only makes sense when looked at in terms of Autodesk using one product to force another product down the throats of its users (ala Microsoft with IE).  That's technically illegal, but hey, Microsoft gets away with it...

sinc

  • Guest
Re: I imagine you all have heard...
« Reply #20 on: June 06, 2008, 09:41:24 AM »
Autodesk made many, many design decisions that are very questionable.  They only make sense if looked at from the perspective that they bought Vault, and wanted some way of getting users to use it.  In other words, it only makes sense when looked at in terms of Autodesk using one product to force another product down the throats of its users (ala Microsoft with IE).  That's technically illegal, but hey, Microsoft gets away with it...

Oh, wait...  I forgot.  It's only illegal if you're a monopoly, and it would be hard to argue that Autodesk has a monopoly on the CADD software industry.

Still, the fact that it's legal doesn't make it taste any better as that unwanted product is being shoved down your throat...


"It was at that very minute that the pickle was going down my throat that I realized...  I didn't want a pickle." - Arlo

mjfarrell

  • Seagull
  • Posts: 14444
  • Every Student their own Lesson
Re: I imagine you all have heard...
« Reply #21 on: June 06, 2008, 10:11:47 AM »
Recall that Project management tools were in C3D until 2006 and prior versions?
The interface is still there on the Prospector TAB, only they replaced it with, "Log Into Vault".
Who wants to log into vault, only to have the ID10T thing leaves your files checked out when you exit and save them?
Who wants or needs a product whose major advantage (read business case) is that it isn't any better than running SAVEMYBUTTON, to keep a current backup of your files. Yet it cost you more to own and operate than a batch file. The cost to Benefit ratio says give me a batch file! Hey autodesk, how about make the product stable so that the user need not rely on TWO(2) safety nets, with giant gaping holes in them! Lets see, Recovery Manager, doesn't always manage. Vault, is less like a safe and more like a mindless hurdle to jump through or over. And all for want of a stable product. Oh wait, I found most of my data in the A$$ file! Whew that was close!
Be your Best


Michael Farrell
http://primeservicesglobal.com/

sinc

  • Guest
Re: I imagine you all have heard...
« Reply #22 on: June 06, 2008, 11:41:15 AM »
>>is severely flawed.<<
No just flawed like everything else.

I said "severely flawed" and I meant it.

Let's take another look at this whole DWG thing.  Basically, the DWG file format is a flat-file representation of a relational database.  That's it.  And representing relational databases in flat files is a very old problem at this point, that has really been worked pretty well in other circles.  And in general, these other implementations do NOT suffer problems with data integrity.  There are other limitations and problems created by storing relational data in a flat file, but loss of data integrity is generally not one of them.

Now let's look at Autodesk's implementation.  DWG files are constantly suffering lack of data integrity - thus the need for the "Drawing Recovery" and "Audit" tools.  The only purpose of those tools is to help clean up the data integrity issues in the DWG file.  Sometimes, this "cleanup" works fine and fixes the problem.  Sometimes it works, but data is lost from the DWG in the process.  Sometimes, it doesn't work at all.  And the real kicker is how darn often these tools must be used.  It's not like this is a sporadic problem that crops up from time to time - it's a constant thing.

So we have a DWG file, and it's major purpose is to store data, but that data often gets corrupted.  I view that as a major flaw that flies directly in the face of the explicit design purpose - it's much worse than being "just as flawed as everything else".  It's something that doesn't do what it was designed to do.

sinc

  • Guest
Re: I imagine you all have heard...
« Reply #23 on: June 06, 2008, 06:07:01 PM »
Of course, the lack of data integrity may be the worst failing of the DWG "technology", but that isn't the only one.

We can look at the overall "DWG technology" (i.e., the code that writes data to and reads data from DWG files) as the persistent storage mechanism for our data.  In other words, the "DWG technology" is basically a form of relational database.  However, the entire DWG structure was designed around a single-user paradigm.  Only one user can be editing a DWG file at one time.  It is not multi-user, like most modern database technology.

Once upon a time, that was fine.  The DWG technology did what it needed to.  And in fact, when Autocad first started, the computers could not have handled the demands of a rigorous solution to this problem.  But that has changed, and the computers that fit in our pockets can outperform the supercomputers of thirty years ago, and are perfectly capable of the task.  Also, with the growing number of giant projects, there is a large demand for multi-user software.  And this is not a new turn of events; it has been growing for years now.  The lack of multi-user access to data was a common complaint with Land Desktop, so it's definitely something Autodesk has been aware of for some time.

Ideally, Autodesk would have addressed the issue at its core, and made Autocad truly a multi-user product.  And ideally, they would have started addressing this problem in a serious manner as soon as it became obvious.  But that would mean replacing the DWG file with some other technology.  So instead, what they decided to do was implement Vault, and let Vault "oversee" a whole collection of DWG files.  In essence, they tried to "back door" their way into multi-user technology by utilizing their old, single-user DWG technology.  Then, by simply using a lot of DWG files, they created a simulation of a multi-user environment.

The biggest problem with this, as mentioned earlier, is that the DWG technology itself is unreliable, and corrupts data too easily.  So, they took a piece of technology that didn't really work in the first place, and made it the core "building block" for their new, multi-user attempt.  This fails in multiple ways.  First, the underlying technology STILL does not support multi-user usage.  Second, the underlying technology is unreliable.  Third, the technology they are using to tie it all together (the Vault) was designed for another purpose entirely, and is ill-suited for its demands as "overseer of the multi-verse".  The whole design is enough to make a software architect like myself shudder with fear.

The best construction analogy I can come up with is that they knew the foundation was bad, so they decided "well, let's just make the walls really thick...".  In reality, all that does is make the walls more expensive, without fixing the bad foundation.  So when the foundation finally fails, the failure is more spectacular (and costly).  Unfortunately, that's the most-likely result if Autodesk continues along the path they are currently following.

mjfarrell

  • Seagull
  • Posts: 14444
  • Every Student their own Lesson
Re: I imagine you all have heard...the Overseer of the Multiverse Speak
« Reply #24 on: June 06, 2008, 06:28:44 PM »
 :lmao:


Yeah....see..it's going to be really cool when you log into Vault.
And then enter your super secret GPS access codes.
And somewhere on earth, a heard of Laser guided earth movers rumble to life.
The images filling 10 of your 42 Nitrogen Plasma True-D monitors.
As you stir cream into your coffee, you upload your terrain model into the waiting diesel monsters.
With an oft practiced move your hand flashes over the Vault console and you capture the data-state of each user mid keystroke.  Making note that New User4576 has reach the limit of his Probationary Crashes and must be terminated.
Absentmindedly, you sip your Rainforest Certified Coffee, and view your latest corridor model in the Object Viewer, and....

Damn!

Damn!

Damn!

The whole thing crashes, the Diesels tumble slowly into the abyss....and the Recovery Manager has finally Gone to Rehab!




Damn!


Damn!



Wake up...this nighmare is brought to you by the Letter V, the number 3
Be your Best


Michael Farrell
http://primeservicesglobal.com/

jpostlewait

  • Guest
Re: I imagine you all have heard...
« Reply #25 on: June 06, 2008, 07:30:30 PM »
Hey it's Friday guys lighten up. :lol:

That's a couple of really strange rants.

KewlToyZ

  • Guest
Re: I imagine you all have heard...
« Reply #26 on: June 06, 2008, 08:29:03 PM »
Take a look at Avail.
It handles the whole drawing backup and recovery issue by mirroring to other servers.
It works well for our 5 offices and is not limited to just AutoCAD files.
It will handle just about any server folder and its contents you point it at. :pissed:

mjfarrell

  • Seagull
  • Posts: 14444
  • Every Student their own Lesson
Re: I imagine you all have heard...
« Reply #27 on: June 06, 2008, 09:25:37 PM »
Kool,

We are not after DMS. That is the whole point. We want Project Management native to C3D without need of Vault. However if you have some Project Management solutions that run inside C3D, be sure to let us know.
Be your Best


Michael Farrell
http://primeservicesglobal.com/

Dinosaur

  • Guest
Re: I imagine you all have heard...
« Reply #28 on: June 07, 2008, 01:18:00 AM »
OK Michael and sinc, I will play along.  What exactly do you guys think this project management would do within Civil 3D?  I thought the little bit of shortcut management offered with 2006 and earlier could have been a bit more robust but was at least usable.  Are you thinking of this method improved a bit and extended to include the new objects or something more complicated ala old Land Desktop or EaglePoint?

mjfarrell

  • Seagull
  • Posts: 14444
  • Every Student their own Lesson
Re: I imagine you all have heard...
« Reply #29 on: June 07, 2008, 11:02:42 AM »
OK Michael and sinc, I will play along.  What exactly do you guys think this project management would do within Civil 3D?  I thought the little bit of shortcut management offered with 2006 and earlier could have been a bit more robust but was at least usable.  Are you thinking of this method improved a bit and extended to include the new objects or something more complicated ala old Land Desktop or EaglePoint?

The vision of what most would consider the minimum level of Project Management within C3D, without Vault in any fashion would be as follows.

One should be able to create a Project Prototype, that contains folders and styles that all projects start with.
The Project should have a Point database, that allows for multiple sets of field observations.
Perhaps keeping each set of observations, in a unique file, and a combined file linked to those other data sets.
The shortcut function should path to a folder within the project.
Point locking and sharing within the project files.
Right in the Prospector Tab
No Vault, right up to, and perhaps even including the moment you attempt to share your data across multiple servers.
Be your Best


Michael Farrell
http://primeservicesglobal.com/