Topic: Creating 3D Fence Diagrams

[mt_philly]

I am trying to create 3D fence diagrams for approximately 30 soil borings (similiar to the one attached).  I have created surfaces for each startum in Surfer, exported them into CAD (LDD 2007 - have access to Civil 3D, but between me dragging my feet and 3D crashes, I am behind the curve on that), and created/superimposed profiles.  So I have 2D diagrams showing strata for each row of borings.  Is there a way I can create 3D versions?  I have been racking my brain and searching the inet, but have come up with nada (unless, of course, I could convince the powers that be to purchase WinFence or the like, which ain't gonna happen).

Also, I need to to calc volumes for each stratum.  Easy enough was my first thought...top soil stratum with existing ground as my lid surface should give me the volume of top soil, but this is not a closed basin (as with a pond - top elevation of the pond is the same as the lid elevation), so is running the volume calc like this going to give me a bogus number?

Thank you so much for any help!

[Mark]

Also, I need to to calc volumes for each stratum.  Easy enough was my first thought...top soil stratum with existing ground as my lid surface should give me the volume of top soil, but this is not a closed basin (as with a pond - top elevation of the pond is the same as the lid elevation), so is running the volume calc like this going to give me a bogus number?

I don't think so, unless I'm missing something.

[Matt__W]

Also, I need to to calc volumes for each stratum.  Easy enough was my first thought...top soil stratum with existing ground as my lid surface should give me the volume of top soil, but this is not a closed basin (as with a pond - top elevation of the pond is the same as the lid elevation), so is running the volume calc like this going to give me a bogus number?

I don't think so, unless I'm missing something.

Obviously the more borings you have, the more accurate the numbers will be.  You may have a high/low spot where you don't have boring information which in turn would throw off the numbers.... might not be drastic, but it's certainly something to keep in mind.


As for running the calcs, Civil 3D can do that fairly easily (at least from what I've seen in the tutorials I've done - haven't had a "real-world" experience with it --- yet!).  Just wait a few hours and Mr. Farrell will show up and probably give you a step-by-step (Oooh, baby! - What song was that from??!?)... But I digress... He'll probably give you a run-down of the steps needed to complete this process.

[mt_philly]

Also, I need to to calc volumes for each stratum.  Easy enough was my first thought...top soil stratum with existing ground as my lid surface should give me the volume of top soil, but this is not a closed basin (as with a pond - top elevation of the pond is the same as the lid elevation), so is running the volume calc like this going to give me a bogus number?

I don't think so, unless I'm missing something.

Yeah, volume calcs should be ok - same as existing ground vs design ground.  I'm it for CAD except for a few who dabble (scary thought) in my co., so the forums are my sounding board...my way of talking thru things...

Obviously the more borings you have, the more accurate the numbers will be.  You may have a high/low spot where you don't have boring information which in turn would throw off the numbers.... might not be drastic, but it's certainly something to keep in mind.

True, true...this is a known variable and all volumes are considered approximate.

[Swift]

Quick solution, you have a x,y,z for the surface at every hole. Use the depth to create a point at each point of interest. You can then use the points to create profiles and use the points to create surfaces to calculate volumes. If you will load your data into excel, you can do this real quick.

You can also connect the points up with 3d polylines to create a picture like you sample. Fill the area between the polylines with 3dfaces and attach some materials, then render it.


Accuracy will depend on the spacing and location of the boreholes.

[Mark]

If you will load your data into excel, you can do this real quick.

Good idea Swift!

[mt_philly]

Quick solution, you have a x,y,z for the surface at every hole. Use the depth to create a point at each point of interest. You can then use the points to create profiles and use the points to create surfaces to calculate volumes. If you will load your data into excel, you can do this real quick.

You can also connect the points up with 3d polylines to create a picture like you sample. Fill the area between the polylines with 3dfaces and attach some materials, then render it.


Accuracy will depend on the spacing and location of the boreholes.

Cool, cool!! That's what I needed...already have the points in excel for Surfer.  Working w/ 3D faces and rendering is new for me, so may be back with more ??s.

Can't thank you enough!!!

[mjfarrell]

What you want is my tutorial on XDRES in Civil 3D so that you can create the strata model in C3D and leave Surfer alone.

I working on a grading project at the moment or I would process that data for you.
You will need an access MDB file whose keyfield is PNOID  (point number ID)
Then you will create an XDREF for each boring log and a point group for same.
These in turn are added to each surface stratum. You can then do volume calcs and cross sections through your surfaces.

You can go to www.primeservicesglobal.com and download the XDREF tutorial on the tutorials page and you will be done in about 20 minutes after watching the video. Enjoy!

Thanks for your endorsement Matt! 

[Swift]

You don't really even have to set materials, if solid colors is good enough. Here is a quick sample

[mt_philly]

You guys are awesome!  I'll let you know how it goes...

[Jeff_M]

You can go to www.primeserviceglobal.com and download the XDREF tutorial on the tutorials page and you will be done in about 20 minutes after watching the video. Enjoy!

If you are going to link to your page, you may want to use the correct link.....isn't it "...serviceS....."?

[mjfarrell]

You can go to www.primeserviceglobal.com and download the XDREF tutorial on the tutorials page and you will be done in about 20 minutes after watching the video. Enjoy!

If you are going to link to your page, you may want to use the correct link.....isn't it "...serviceS....."?

Yes, yes it is...excuse the typo, it was/is early on the Island...why will it not allow me edit that link?  anyone?

Nevermind.....geeze I got up too early to do anything Except do grading correctly today it would seem 

[Matt__W]

Thanks for your endorsement Matt! 

^^^
See??  I told you he'd probably stop by!   

[mt_philly]

Fought with it several times in C3D 2008 with the same result...each time I created a new point group for each stratum, the previous groups were over-written with the new elevation and desc.  Closed out and opened C3D 2007...all looks good so far!  Must make sure IT has updated all patches.

[mjfarrell]

Fought with it several times in C3D 2008 with the same result...each time I created a new point group for each stratum, the previous groups were over-written with the new elevation and desc.  Closed out and opened C3D 2007...all looks good so far!  Must make sure IT has updated all patches.

And the sad news on this experiment is that I was in communication with autodesk product development team with this, and end the end they claimed the problem did NOT exist.

Happy to be of assistance however.

[mt_philly]

There are many problems I wish I could claim don't exist..."poof" they would all go away...at least in my little place in the world.  Am I surprised by ADesk's response?  No way!

Many many thanks for the tutorial and intro to C3D.  I'll have to quit dragging my feet and check it out a bit more.

[mjfarrell]

There are many problems I wish I could claim don't exist..."poof" they would all go away...at least in my little place in the world.  Am I surprised by ADesk's response?  No way!

Many many thanks for the tutorial and intro to C3D.  I'll have to quit dragging my feet and check it out a bit more.

Yes, they would not share their data with me; however I did share my data with them to prove the point.
Even Dana Probert posted this problem with the application, and still they would not accept that the application was flawed, or deficient in that task.

You are quite welcome, enjoy the other tutorials. And I should be posting a a couple more upon my return to Arizona.

I always stand ready to be of assistance.

[mt_philly]

I'm still at it...figured out some of the rendering stuff and have created the multiple surfaces for the strata in C3d (thank you, thank you for your guidance), but now I'm feeling like a real dolt.  I have gravel lenses that fall within some of my stratums; they are not part of a continuous layer.  If this was just a pretty picture, I'd say no sweat - manually draw them onto my cross sections and be done with this and the guy who wants it, but I need to calculate volumes.  Is there a way to create a surface that contains an empty pocket - for lack of a better way of putting it, short of creating the two surfaces (the stratum and the gravel pocket) and subtracting the gravel volume from the full stratum volume?  I feel like I do, or should, know the answer to this, but am not finding it in my in the dark, cobwebbed recesses of my brain.

Thanks!!!

[jnieman]

I'm still at it...figured out some of the rendering stuff and have created the multiple surfaces for the strata in C3d (thank you, thank you for your guidance), but now I'm feeling like a real dolt.  I have gravel lenses that fall within some of my stratums; they are not part of a continuous layer.  If this was just a pretty picture, I'd say no sweat - manually draw them onto my cross sections and be done with this and the guy who wants it, but I need to calculate volumes.  Is there a way to create a surface that contains an empty pocket - for lack of a better way of putting it, short of creating the two surfaces (the stratum and the gravel pocket) and subtracting the gravel volume from the full stratum volume?  I feel like I do, or should, know the answer to this, but am not finding it in my in the dark, cobwebbed recesses of my brain.

Thanks!!!

Off the top of my head... can't you SLICE a solid using a surface?

[mt_philly]

I think I am in over my head

[jnieman]

This is basic, but hopefully the principle is clear.

Code: [Select]

Command: slice
Select objects to slice: Specify opposite corner: 1 found

Select objects to slice:
Specify start point of slicing plane or [planar
Object/Surface/Zaxis/View/XY/YZ/ZX/3points] <3points>: s
Select a surface:

Select solid to keep or [keep Both sides] <Both>:
Ref. attached dwg.

I'd never seen a 'fence diagram' like that shown in 3d in such a way... that's pretty cool.  I don't do dirt work really, and I've only seen and read a handful of geotech reports on various projects we've done.... that's about the extent of my experience, heh.

Pretty interesting thing, though

[mt_philly]

Thank you - I'll check it out...

The fence diagrams are pretty cool - first time I've attempted to do them like this.  If it was going to be a common thing for me to do, I think I'd push for buying Rockworks, unless I get a routine down pat in CAD.

[jnieman]

Thank you - I'll check it out...

The fence diagrams are pretty cool - first time I've attempted to do them like this.  If it was going to be a common thing for me to do, I think I'd push for buying Rockworks, unless I get a routine down pat in CAD.

Well basically I was building off of what Swift said, about creating a surface to define the boundary of a certain soil type.  Create a box that contains the ENTIRE volume and use the surfaces you have to slice it into chunks.  Each solid should then be able to have it's volume accessed via the "MASSPROP" command.

[mt_philly]

Sorry, I'm not getting it...if the gravel lens extended through the entire soil horizon, then I could slice it, but in reality, it is just a a glob here and a glob there, so I am not sure if that would work (see the attached dwg)

[mjfarrell]

Philly there is a way to do what you want to do. However we will want to take this offline as it will get too difficult to type.
However AFTER you do you will be able to post the solution so that others will be able to follow along.

Use my Profile information to A)PM me with your contact data, or B) Email me with same and I will get you through this as gently as possible.

[jnieman]

ah sorry, I took that example in the first post as kind of the 'typical' situations.

You'd still use about the same process though :\

Maybe give me a sample set of data ?

[mjfarrell]

Essentially the user will Remove the gravel area from the lower Stratum, and then add the top of the gravel data to the Upper strata (subtracting itself out) then do a compare between the upper and lower strata with the gravel volumes removed, the resultant will be the volume of the gravel voids.

Interestingly enough, if this is for oil, and or natural gas one could approximate the storage volume as a Circular pipe of the same volume, and then by setting the Percent Voids value correctly it would subtract the gravel and give one the volume of gas or oil in the gravel deposit.

If the gravel void(s) occur as a single mass in fully within a single strata, the user may need create and subtract out an upper, and lower gravel void surface to compare against and sum them manually. This would work quite well in the General Volume tools, without need of creating a Volume Surface

[scout]

Yes, they would not share their data with me; however I did share my data with them to prove the point.
Even Dana Probert posted this problem with the application, and still they would not accept that the application was flawed, or deficient in that task.

Have you tried this in 2009 yet? I have to put together a dataset later this week, and I am wondering if it is still an issue.

[mjfarrell]

Preliminary test indicates that it is still broken in 2009 (no SP)


It seems that the instant one applies the XDREF overrides, the points, they forget everything about description or elevation.

This in turn whacks the surface built from the XDREF point information.

As an additional variable, I manually entered an elevation, and the second surface then appeared in my Quick Sections and Profiles as a separate surface. Otherwise, they were all shown at the same elevation a the original points.

[scout]

Thanks!

Preliminary test indicates that it is still broken in 2009 (no SP)

[mjfarrell]

Thanks!

Preliminary test indicates that it is still broken in 2009 (no SP)

Yes, and the crazy part is Sculley I have photographic evidence that it did work correctly at some point in time.





The Truth is Out There....

[Dinosaur]

And a witness . . . during a class using r2005 in Greensboro, NC - I don't know when it got broken but I would suspect with r2008.

[mjfarrell]

Yes, they would not share their data with me; however I did share my data with them to prove the point.
Even Dana Probert posted this problem with the application, and still they would not accept that the application was flawed, or deficient in that task.

Have you tried this in 2009 yet? I have to put together a dataset later this week, and I am wondering if it is still an issue.

Any word on your demonstrating that this function fails, and any possible fix for it?

[scout]

Any word on your demonstrating that this function fails, and any possible fix for it?

The gentleman that I spoke to about it said that he got it to work in 2009, and I haven't had a chance to chase it myself yet. When I get back to the states next week I will have another look.

[scout]

The gentleman that I spoke to about it said that he got it to work in 2009, and I haven't had a chance to chase it myself yet. When I get back to the states next week I will have another look.

In one of those odd ironies of life, the data set for the demonstration that I need to build on this subject arrived in my inbox about 20 mins ago. I will have some clarity early next week.

[mjfarrell]

I recently did this in 2009 and it STILL doesn't work, however this is without the service pack installed...

I will re test and report back, thank you for your attention to this..

Do they plan on fixing the surface slope analysis tools, soon?

[mjfarrell]

I recently did this in 2009 and it DOES work, however this is without the service pack installed...



Do they plan on fixing the surface slope analysis tools, soon?

OK, nevermind I must have been holding the Dry Erase Markers too close.

I just ran a test and all does indeed appear to be in order.....hmmm

[scout]

I just ran a test and all does indeed appear to be in order.....hmmm

I can confirm that it works, too! Hooray! I built my dataset this week with no issues.

[mjfarrell]

I just ran a test and all does indeed appear to be in order.....hmmm

I can confirm that it works, too! Hooray! I built my dataset this week with no issues.

Now if we can get them to fix the surface analysis tools they broke..........